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| Nikon PC (Perspective Control) lenses | Rating: 
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| Posted by jk: Fri Aug 24th, 2012 10:41 | 1st Post |
| Does anyone have any Nikon PC lenses ? Have you used them?. What is the difference between the older PC version and the newer PC-E version. I know that Peter Lo has the Nikon PC-E 24mm f3.5. Very nice but probably not something I would like to shell out for even though it is obviously the current state of the art from Nikon. How equivalent to a proper swing/tilt effect found on a 5x4 camera ?
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| Posted by Gilbert Sandberg: Fri Aug 24th, 2012 15:54 | 2nd Post |
| JK, The PC-E lenses are designed with electric F control, to complement cameras like the D3 and later. To use the PC-E lens woth most older cameras tricks are needed. ( some beyond what you can read in the lens manual). I own an older 28mm PC and have used the 24 PC-E lens. The tilt/swing is obviously not as flexible like a true 4x5 camera, if only the relation of tilt and swing is fixed , but can be rotated 90 deg by a service tech. Regards, Gilbert
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| Posted by jk: Fri Aug 24th, 2012 16:17 | 3rd Post |
| Thanks for the info Gilbert. I would love to try out the 24 PC-E but it seems like an expensive purchase for a try out.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by TomOC: Fri Aug 24th, 2012 20:27 | 4th Post |
| JK- Look for the old versions on ebay or even B&H used department... Less than half the price of the new ones and some of us like the way they shift from portrait to landscape better than the new versions. The pc is incredible for any architectural shots. It's just amazing how you can make better photos. I wasn't a believer until I worked with a guy who really knew what he was doing; I thought I could use the 24-70 and then correct in photoshop and match him....FAIL I understand that Canon has leapfrogged Nikon recently by adding independent tilt and shift, though I must admit, I haven't gotten my head around how you would use that  Best results always come from a good tripod with a good level Rent one and go shoot some interiors and exterior shots...you will never go back. Tom PS - the older ones are all manual
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by Doug: Sat Aug 25th, 2012 01:09 | 5th Post |
| Thanks JK I've always loved camera movements, but went off the boil with view camera photography around the time of the D1. Unfortunately PC lenses on digital were never satisfactory (until now) due to the high cost of even half decent FF resolution Perhaps the purchase of a D800 and a PC lens is on the horizon
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| Posted by Gilbert Sandberg: Sat Aug 25th, 2012 04:26 | 6th Post |
| JK, I would recommend borrowing or renting a PC-E lens to try it. A word of warning for the younger ones among us. Older PC lenses (upto the 85 2.8 Micro-D) have full manual control over F stops, so yo have to shut it by hand for each shot. (this is what the PC-E series remedies) Also: the 24 PC-E is (physically) the largest 24mm lens I have ever seen. I agree with Tom: useless without plenty of patience, a tripod and spirit level (or D4). Regards, Gilbert
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| Posted by jk: Sat Aug 25th, 2012 06:48 | 7th Post |
| Oh dear I feel some temptation for that 24mm PC-E but as I have just said that I have finished my lens collection. Maybe I could sneak one extra item in if I go to Vietnam and Cambodia via Hong Kong. Renting is not a good option here in Spain as there are no suitable rental agencies close by. I could probably offer a better service and lens range than most shops.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Gilbert Sandberg: Sat Aug 25th, 2012 08:26 | 8th Post |
| JK, You may try to get into so called good books with a local dealer or Nikon Spain. Here in Holland Nikon (NPS) visits selected (professional) dealers while bringing most nice (current) lenses. Regards, Gilbert
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| Posted by Peter_LO: Thu Aug 30th, 2012 04:01 | 9th Post |
| JK, I don't have any 4x5 but only a 6x17 with shift function. The PC-E 24 is very sharp in its "neutral" position, but once shifted it has much more CA that the Super Angulon 90, and sharpness drops drastically. AE and auto-aperture are big pluses over non-E PC lenses, but the vignetting wide-open will fool the meter and it ends up into heavily over-exposed pictures. That said, I can feel the temptation.:thumbsup: If renting is not a viable option, how about buying one 2nd hand? AFAIK a 2nd hand PC 35 is only USD 500 in HK.
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| Posted by jk: Thu Aug 30th, 2012 08:55 | 10th Post |
Peter_LO wrote: JK,Thanks for the information on the realities of use. I can see a Nikon 24mm f3.5 PC-E in the UK for £1150 (second hand) but I can buy one new for £1400 so the differential is not good. I can also see second hand units of Nikon 35 PC or (my preference) 28mm PC for £300 and £400 respectively. There is also another option I am considering which is a Kipon tilt adapter for the Fuji XPro1 which allows me to attach a Nikon lens. This sounds best to be as the cost is only £75 delivered to my door from China.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Robert: Thu Aug 30th, 2012 09:38 | 11th Post |
| But the image circle of a standard Nikon lens won't allow much tilt. You need a lens with a larger image circle for a worthwhile endeavor.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by TomOC: Thu Aug 30th, 2012 11:22 | 12th Post |
| JK- I strongly prefer the 24mm, but here is a great deal on a 35mm http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/800882482-USE/Nikon_35mm_f_2_8_PC_Lens.html Tom
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by jk: Thu Aug 30th, 2012 13:56 | 13th Post |
Robert wrote: But the image circle of a standard Nikon lens won't allow much tilt. You need a lens with a larger image circle for a worthwhile endeavor.If you use a FX lens on a DX camera (Fuji XPro1) you get a bit of extra leeway. But Yes it would be close. :thumbsup:
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by jk: Thu Aug 30th, 2012 13:58 | 14th Post |
TomOC wrote: JK-Agree Tom about the 24mm. Cant buy from USA as shipping and customs make it unworkable and expensive.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Squarerigger: Thu Aug 30th, 2012 15:37 | 15th Post |
Very interesting JK. I can't seem to get my mind wrapped around the concept of this PC lens. Never seen one or it's product that I know of.
____________________ -------------------------------------------- Gary |
| Posted by Robert: Thu Aug 30th, 2012 15:49 | 16th Post |
| Take a look at this site Gary: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/nikon_24_pc.shtml They take a lot of skill and experience to get the best from them but in the right hands...
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Squarerigger: Thu Aug 30th, 2012 16:14 | 17th Post |
Robert wrote:Take a look at this site Gary: Thanks Robert. Very interesting lens. The article was indeed helpful and his little video went a long way to helping me understand what this lens accomplishes. Very impressive piece of engineering and very expensive!!
____________________ -------------------------------------------- Gary |
| Posted by Gilbert Sandberg: Fri Aug 31st, 2012 09:13 | 18th Post |
| Peter_io wrote: "will fool the meter..." The lens-manual warns against all metering with any shift or tilt, so this is not an issue. Regards, Gilbert
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| Posted by Doug: Fri Aug 31st, 2012 15:02 | 19th Post |
Squarerigger wrote:Very interesting JK. I can't seem to get my mind wrapped around the concept of this PC lens. Never seen one or it's product that I know of. The camera lens is like a video projector, projecting an image onto the sensor Imagine photographing a flat square building - if you tilt the camera and sensor away from the perpendicular (ie the sensor is not parallel to the subject) the image of the building will be distorted If you keep the sensor and the building parallel the building will be square, but will not fit in the frame (from ground level) If you slide (shift) the lens around then you are able to slide around the image formed within the camera to bring the object fully back into view while the sensor and building remain parallel maintaining correct perspective As for seeing the output of this type of optical trick, you have definitely seen it in everything from architecture right down to studio shots of good quality perfumes and kitchen wares
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| Posted by Squarerigger: Sat Sep 1st, 2012 10:23 | 20th Post |
Doug wrote:Squarerigger wrote: Thanks Doug, after reading Robert's link, I am sure you are correct that I have seen many uses of this lens but was unaware of the technology in use.
____________________ -------------------------------------------- Gary |
| Posted by Peter_LO: Sat Sep 1st, 2012 12:59 | 21st Post |
| Gilbert Sandberg wrote: The lens-manual warns against all metering with any shift or tilt, so this is not an issue. Regards, Gilbert True, but just can't resist to use the meter as it's there.
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| Posted by jk: Mon Sep 3rd, 2012 03:47 | 22nd Post |
| This new lens from Samyang may provide a cheap entry into the PC range. http://photorumors.com/2012/09/02/first-image-of-the-upcoming-samyang-24mm-f3-5-tilt-shift-lens/ Need to wait until after Photokina to see if it arrives and at what price.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by jk: Fri Sep 7th, 2012 11:32 | 23rd Post |
| And here is the info from Samyang. Unfortunately no price at present. http://photorumors.com/2012/09/07/samyang-t-s-24mm-13-5-ed-as-umc-lens-announced/
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by amazing50: Fri Sep 7th, 2012 17:41 | 24th Post |
| I have the Nikon 35mm f/2.8 PC Lens 1, which I don't use much for perspective control shots anymore as they aren't as useful on the smaller sensors. Mine looks exactly like the B&H one. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/800882482-USE/Nikon_35mm_f_2_8_PC_Lens.html It rotates on the mount with click stops every 30 Degrees. There are white dots showing on the B&H pic. The Samyang T-S 24mm 1:3.5 ED AS UMC lens looks interesting, especially if I go for a D800. Will hold off till the reviews are in. By the way, if you have a Hasselblad wide angle sitting around, there is a mount, the Kipon Hasselblad V mount CF lens to Nikon F Tilt & Shift Adapter for D3X D4 D800 that runs about $350US or a plain shift adapter for about $150. Since those lenses were meant for Medium format, there is no problem with edge sharpness.
____________________ There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept ;~) Mike Grace |
| Posted by TomOC: Fri Sep 7th, 2012 23:58 | 25th Post |
| JK- Samyang just announced a 23mm PC lens. No idea if they make quality stuff or not - though their name does seem to come up quite a bit lately. No price announced yet, but I think they are generally about 1/4 to 1/3 of Nikon price? Tom
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by jk: Sat Sep 8th, 2012 02:54 | 26th Post |
| Yes I posted a link to the new Samyang PC lens above.. Rumours says that the lens will be $700 in US so maybe £500-600 in UK. Samyang produce very good quality stuff both in build and optical quality but only with manual focus so it shouldnt be a problem. Autofocus is superfluous with PC lenses as manual focussing is a must. That looks fine for the use it would get but if I could get the Nikon 24mm f3.5 PCE at a good price I would probably go for that.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Robert: Sat Sep 8th, 2012 05:50 | 27th Post |
| I can't help thinking that nobody can make a $2000 lens and sell it for $700. The reason for using a tilt shift is to extract the last ounce of perfection from the image, can that be achieved with a lens 1/3 the price? Even the Nikkor suffers noticeable CA at the edges according to the review I read. Because of the construction of a DSLR it's impossible to use a true tilt shift , so it appears the PC lens is split onto two sections, an image gatherer and an image projector. The tilt shift effects happen at the intersect of the two sections of the lens and the resulting image is projected to the mirror/viewfinder or the sensor during exposure. I think the wide angle Hass idea is a good one but I wonder how the DSLR snags are overcome, if they are? Seems to me there has to be vignetting at the more extreme tilt-shifts?
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Dave Groen: Sat Sep 8th, 2012 09:42 | 28th Post |
Robert wrote: Because of the construction of a DSLR it's impossible to use a true tilt shift...I'm confused. What's different about the construction of a DSLR vs. a film SLR, except that there's a sensor in the same location that the film would reside? The shutter, mirror, and mirror box are pretty much the same. The lens bends light rays around and shoots them out the back of the lenses mount. The tilt affects the angle at which they emerge. The shift affects which portion of the image circle is used. How does what's behind the lens mount change any of this? There's also all those extra electronics in a DSLR but they don't affect this discussion.
____________________ I started out with nothing and still have most of it left |
| Posted by Robert: Sat Sep 8th, 2012 12:24 | 29th Post |
| I was comparing it with a true, say 5x4 technical camera. The Nikon tilt shift lens is in two parts, the front part which does the tilting and shifting, and the 'projector' part which projects the image straight onto the sensor (or film) A DSLR (or SLR) has a narrow port where the lens attaches, the image must be projected straight into the camera, the entire lens can't tilt or shift much or the edges of the lens mount would obstruct the sensors view of the image, it's like the body has tunnel vision. A technical camera has none of these constraints and can tilt and shift using any standard lens. An SLR or DSLR can't, at least not more than a degree or two, and not with a standard Nikkor lens. The PB4 bellows allows slight tilting and shifting, which can be useful but if using a standard Nikkor the image circle could be a problem, and it's only any use with either the 105mm F4.5 Bellows Nikkor or a similar lens like an EL Nikkor. That's why the PC lenses bend in the middle.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Sat Sep 8th, 2012 19:38 | 30th Post |
| It should work OK on a smaller format but as you say lens coverage may be an issue. PC lenses tend to cover more. Chromatic aberration is fairly easy to correct these days 
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Peter_LO: Tue Sep 11th, 2012 04:47 | 31st Post |
| I'm a happy owner of Samyang's 500/6.3 (rebranded as Kenko), so I can't wait to see the sample pic of its PC lens.
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| Posted by Peter_LO: Tue Sep 11th, 2012 05:03 | 32nd Post |
Robert wrote:The PB4 bellows allows slight tilting and shifting, which can be useful but if using a standard Nikkor the image circle could be a problem, and it's only any use with either the 105mm F4.5 Bellows Nikkor or a similar lens like an EL Nikkor. I'm thinking about buying the 85 PC-E as well but it seems taht the bellow+EL Nikkor combo is cheaper and makes more sense. Pity that the "longest" EL lens produced by Nikon today is only 63mm so it won't allow much shifting.
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| Posted by jk: Tue Sep 11th, 2012 05:43 | 33rd Post |
Peter_LO wrote: Robert wrote:Peter, Is that new lenses or old you are referring to regarding 63mm ?. I used to have an EL Nikkor for my SuperChromega enlarger that was 150mm f5.6 but that was nearly 15 years ago!!! I just did a search on eBay ( using El Nikkor lens) and got back El Nikkors 50mm, 75mm, 80mm, 105mm, 150mm and 210mm. The lenses obviously correspond to use with film of particular sizes. For PC use the 105mm would be great as that was designed for 6x9cms, or 150mm for 5x4, even the 75mm and 80mm lenses would work well as they were designed for 6x6 film.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Peter_LO: Wed Sep 12th, 2012 04:38 | 34th Post |
| JK, This may be the best kept secret - even our local Nikon office says they haven't heard about that ... but Nikon is still producing EL and UV Nikkors. In fact, the new lenses may be seen as an upgrade of the old lenses as they all have metal barrel and aperture lock. http://www.tochigi-nikon.co.jp/products/lens/il.htm
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