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Catalog Apps revisited...

Author	Post

Posted by TomOC: Thu Aug 1st, 2013 00:20

1^st Post

Well I definitely have to thank Rich Whetton for bringing me around to this.

All the talk about capture one, which uses either catalogs or a "sessions" file handling methodology, I've come full circle and I'm now taking a second look at light room.

I purchased capture one, and I don't regret it. It does about 80% of what Photoshop does; the other 20% it does differently sometimes better sometimes not, and it does a few things that Photoshop does not do.

According to many of the users of capture one, the catalog system is new and not yet completely stable, particularly for large catalogs. The sessions method seems really silly to me, and creates all sorts of folders and records that I just don't need. My answer was going to be try both methods and just delete the catalogs or sessions, flatten the files of images I'm printing, save them the way I always do, and I've got a new raw converter that (particularly for the Fuji files) is a little bit better than ACR.

As I played with capture one using small catalogs I got comfortable with that idea. I then thought back to some of the things that Rich said about using light room and it working so closely with Photoshop. That has me taking a whole new look at light room.

I really love the way it does some things â€“ they still fill a little uncomfortable compared to I customize Photoshop shortcuts and actions and plug-ins.

I'm at the point now where I have a couple of semi-intelligent questions for Rich and you other light room users:

1- since I want to have the same information on both my laptop and iMac (at least for my current months shooting, the solution I've come up with is to save the catalog in my dropbox folder. My thought is that at the end of the month when I move the month folder to my external hard drive for archiving, I move the catalog along with it. Does this sound reasonable? Are there any pitfalls to starring in dropbox, or moving later to the hard drive?

2- I still don' t have a good enough feel for LR vs PS to frame this question correctly, but here goes...what does PS do that LR does not? When do you HAVE to hand off the image file to PS? Is there a list somewhere of what PS does that LR doesn't and vice versa? and which one does which better? At the end of the day, after watching a couple of hours of Adobe TV on LR, I feel like...hey, doesn't this replace PS? Does it?

It seems a little less straight forward but it actually has some features (like simple way to make printer templates) that are complicated to set up but will be long run timesavers. If I can get confident that I can live with catalogs, I will spend the time to learn all this... so what do you think?

thanks,

tom ... an old dog but not totally unwilling to learn new tricks

:-)

____________________
Tom O'Connell

-Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem.

Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh

Posted by jk: Thu Aug 1st, 2013 05:01

2^nd Post

Q1. I use LR5 as my catalog DAM.
I put the catalog on the drive where all the images live. So if I use LR to access local file the I just make a new catalog which I can delete easily. The main catalog on the networked drive is accessible from all machines. I copy all new folders of files onto the network drive as soon as I download from the camera.
If i wan to sync I just sync the xmp files which are tiny. This way if I edit in PS, LR, but not Bibble/ASP or Capture One then I have all my changes and especially any metadata changes. in fact some metadata changes om CO, PS, LR and Bibble5/ASP are all freely exchanged for EXIF changes or catalogs.
The latest version 7.1.3 of CO allows sharing of catalogs with LR but it is still very new and since I dont use the CO catalogs only sessions.

Q2 So much more - Actions, proper layer editing. That is more than enough to stop me using LR except for trivial edits if at all.

Woof, woof.

____________________
Still learning after all these years!
https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none

Posted by TomOC: Thu Aug 1st, 2013 13:20

3^rd Post

I guess I just have to use it for a while to see what it does to my DAM system. I use Media Pro for archiving my catalogs - none of the other apps work so well or manage as many files in a catalog. That said, what I also need is a smaller subset of images - maybe the last 3 months worth located and synced on my laptop and iMac and the catalog somewhere like Dropbox so I can access them at home or away. I THINK the dropbox solution will work...still not positive.

As to the layer issue, I have a copy of Perfect Photo Suite, which includes Perfect Layers (not used on Photoshop) which gives LR all the layer goodness of PS plus a little. As for Actions...I have quite a few, but it looks like many can be recreated in LR as presets? Or not...

Oh well... This insane project is taking mountains of time :-)

Where will it all end? Probably with a grudging subscription to PS? Not so much just for ACR, more perhaps to save the accumulated working knowledge of PS - but it has exposed me to some of the advantages of CO7 and LR... I just don't completely see the path for integrating them peacefully ...

____________________
Tom O'Connell

-Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem.

Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh

Posted by jk: Thu Aug 1st, 2013 17:39

4^th Post

I have a copy of Perfect Layers for Lightroom but in truth it is easier to just open the image in PS and save the final edit as a JPG/TIFF.

____________________
Still learning after all these years!
https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none

Posted by richw: Wed Aug 7th, 2013 07:22

5^th Post

Tom,

Q1 - there is functionality in Lightroom for Synchronising a catalogue between a PC and laptop. I have never used it but I believe it came in about version 3, because a lot of photographers were screaming for it. I'll see if I can find a tutorial for it, I believe there is one in lightroomkillertips.com.

Q2 - everything that is in ACR is in Lightroom but no more without purchasing plugins. ACR can do a hell of a lot now, local adjustments with the brush and other tools, most photo-fixing type adjustments are possible but fine work, compositing etc need photoshop. There are however a lot of third party plugins that extend this functionality. As well as the layers plug in JK mentioned, Nik software do a lot including Silver Effects and HDR which look good, I might try them out when extra funds are available, but for now generally if it needs that bit extra I use Photoshop.

I always go back to Lightroom for printing, creating Jpgs or TIFFs, or web galleries. Not tried books yet but intend to fairly soon.

Posted by TomOC: Wed Aug 7th, 2013 15:02

6^th Post

Rich-

I've spent a lot of time in the last two weeks trying to get my head around both CO7 and LR. I have come to the conclusion for now, at least, that co7 does a little more, but does not integrate nearly as well with 3P plugins.

I've spent enough time with LR (finally - I bought LR4 because of the book module...and was disappointed that it did not do the one thing I queried adobe on and they said it would do...custom end flaps :-)

____________________
Tom O'Connell

-Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem.

Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh

Posted by TomOC: Wed Aug 7th, 2013 15:07

7^th Post

jk wrote:
I have a copy of Perfect Layers for Lightroom but in truth it is easier to just open the image in PS and save the final edit as a JPG/TIFF.
You're probably right about that, JK.

But the problem I see is that it is easy to get from LR to PS but no so easy to return... I really like the print module in LR - easy to make presets to use for different types of prints and different printers.

If I was doing a project with lots of layers that I was moving in and out of the files, there is no doubt that PS is the only way to go. Other than that, I'm finding little I can't do in LR once I learn how...

Surprised to be admitting this - and the catalogs may still drive me away - but I'm very pleasantly surprised by the LR goodness :-)

. It definitely needs some tweaking for the guy who wants to just bring in one file from somewhere and edit it!!!

We'll see. LR is clearly a good alternative to paying monthly taxes to adobe.

____________________
Tom O'Connell

-Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem.

Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh

Posted by richw: Thu Aug 8th, 2013 07:42

8^th Post

TomOC wrote:
Rich-

I've spent a lot of time in the last two weeks trying to get my head around both CO7 and LR. I have come to the conclusion for now, at least, that co7 does a little more, but does not integrate nearly as well with 3P plugins.

I've spent enough time with LR (finally - I bought LR4 because of the book module...and was disappointed that it did not do the one thing I queried adobe on and they said it would do...custom end flaps :-)

. Now that I've spent some time and watch a whole number of tutorials, I see why photographers like it so much. I can see where you would still go to PS from time to time, but it is so hard to come back from PS (why is it easier to get from LR to PS, adobe?) that I think you would work harder to try to do all your work in LR. Certainly printing is better! And the OnOne plugins work directly and much faster than in PS.

I have a catalog solution that I think will work - keeping the LR catalog in Dropbox. The worry of corrupting and screwing it up still lies just below the surface for me, but so long as I remember to sync everything before working in LR, I'm going to be fine. Over time I'll find a solution to what I do with all the catalogs (I'm thinking now of one for each year) and where I will put older ones etc., but I've decided that if I lose them, no harm no foul...the raw files still exists and I keep a separate file for each image I actually print - non-destructive be damned, I flatten all of these printed files and save them full sized either as a .psd or .tif. So if the catalogs wind up gone/corrupted, I probably won't really lose much that I care about.

Thanks for your encouragement and help in this...
Tom, the move back to Lightroom should be pretty seamless as well. If you go to External File Editing in Lightroom preferences and tick Stack with original I find this works pretty well.

I open all my documents by default as 16 bit PSD files also set up in preferences.

Open into Photoshop from Lightroom, do your edits and just click save. Close the file in photoshop. If you switch back to Lightroom it should now be showing the image you just edited in Photoshop, which should be placed next to the orginal file in the catalogue. If I want it somewhere else I now move it in Lightroom which maintains the Catalogue integrity.

Posted by TomOC: Thu Aug 8th, 2013 13:11

9^th Post

Thanks, Rich.

I never save in PS - in fact I changed the âŒ˜+S short cut to SaveAs :-)

That was just what I needed to know to get PS and LR working together - now I have to remember (no small change) never to save to my "printed" folder from PS so I have all the files in my catalog...mmmmm????

Making progress...watched about 6 tutorials over breakfast this week :-)

Cheers,

Tom

____________________
Tom O'Connell

-Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem.

Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh

Posted by jk: Thu Aug 8th, 2013 19:30

10^th Post

TomOC wrote:

I never save in PS - in fact I changed the âŒ˜+S short cut to SaveAs :-)

That was just what I needed to know to get PS and LR working together - now I have to remember (no small change) never to save to my "printed" folder from PS so I have all the files in my catalog...

Tom
If you right click on any existing folder in your catalog structure and do a Synchronise then it adds any new file automatically.

____________________
Still learning after all these years!
https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none

Posted by TomOC: Thu Aug 8th, 2013 19:42

11^th Post

Thanks, JK

With that and the Save to get back to LR, I am now on the same planet as the rest of you :-)

____________________
Tom O'Connell

-Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem.

Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh

Posted by jk: Fri Aug 9th, 2013 03:58

12^th Post

As Rich has said to us all for a while the features are all there in LR (except for proper Layers) but........ For me the interface is not as I would like it.
I spend more time looking for stuff than I like. I know PS much better so I prefer that, I know LR catalogs fairly well so I use them. For my add ons I really like the Topaz, Nik Software, OnOne plug-ins.

____________________
Still learning after all these years!
https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none

Posted by richw: Fri Aug 9th, 2013 08:30

13^th Post

TomOC wrote:
Thanks, Rich.

I never save in PS - in fact I changed the âŒ˜+S short cut to SaveAs :-)

Cheers,

Tom
Save As breaks the link, you can only use Save. Try HDR or Panoramic stitching from Lightroom, works really well also.

Posted by TomOC: Fri Aug 9th, 2013 12:08

14^th Post

jk wrote:
As Rich has said to us all for a while the features are all there in LR (except for proper Layers) but........ For me the interface is not as I would like it.
I spend more time looking for stuff than I like. I know PS much better so I prefer that, I know LR catalogs fairly well so I use them. For my add ons I really like the Topaz, Nik Software, OnOne plug-ins.
There is no question in my mind that Nik and onOne plugins both work better and faster in LR than Cap One or even PS.

I've never used Topaz ... Sounds like you think it's worth a try?

____________________
Tom O'Connell

-Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem.

Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh

Posted by TomOC: Fri Aug 9th, 2013 12:14

15^th Post

richw wrote:

Save As breaks the link, you can only use Save. Try HDR or Panoramic stitching from Lightroom, works really well also.
Poor me I have PS so customized that I forget some of the basics <g>

I haven't tried some of my other plugins yet...guess they will all work pretty much the same...

Thx

Tom

____________________
Tom O'Connell

-Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem.

Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh

Posted by richw: Fri Aug 9th, 2013 23:46

16^th Post

By the way, for iPad owners that use Lightroom, there is a 'Lightroom' magazine app available from the App Store. It puts an icon on your screen and you can then purchase different magazine additions from the store, they are pretty good, mixing mainly print style magazine on the iPad with the occasional video tutorial.

Posted by TomOC: Sat Aug 10th, 2013 01:21

17^th Post

My wife has been traveling all week, so I have now watched every adobe video on LR and many others and just downloaded the app you refer to, Rich.

There is no lack of information out there - even if you are only interested in LR5!

I see now what you have been enjoying for some time. I could never see why you wouldn't just do things in PS but as file sizes get enormously larger - say D800 - you really can't afford the storage space to be non-destructive in PS...leads to just too many 500mb files if you use multiple layers and don't flatten...Many of the same things can be done in LR in a virtual mode and you don't run out of space and processor power.

Right now the big advantage of LR over CO7 is that it is so similar to PS and works much much better with plugins and other apps.

I've spent some time today with the LR 5 book module and they have made some seemingly small but very important updates in it...even is LR doesn't take over as my main editor, it will definitely become my sole book making app. The big deal for me is the ease of making user templates. I make all my own custom layouts in PS for Blurb and it takes some time, but I have a lot of control via layers..the negative was that I had to pretty much create each page from scratch (following my notes of other pages to keep uniformity where I wanted it...I think that problem is solved with LR and the new User Template functionality...it will be a little more work initially and then a snap going forward.

Well, Marianne is coming home tomorrow morning, so I have to get off the Internet now and put all the stuff away that I have just left sitting on counters and take out the garbage and generally get the house livable again :-)

Tom

____________________
Tom O'Connell

-Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem.

Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh

Posted by richw: Sat Aug 10th, 2013 07:14

18^th Post

I came to Photography much later than the rest of you, and just as I was getting serious Lightroom came out. Perhaps because I hadn't really got any embedded habits I took to it really quickly and it does two key things for me:

1. Organises my images in a way that means I can find them in numerous different ways.

2. A very fast work flow. Every other method I have heard described here just seems like a lot more work.

As it gets more mature a lot of the downsides seem to be eliminated.

One of the big benefits you mention is efficiency of file storage, I think where this really comes into its own is virtual copies. This lets you create numerous different versions of an image and try lots of different looks out with virtually no storage overhead.

1st new

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