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Life without a DSLR  Rate Topic 
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Posted by Squarerigger: Tue Nov 27th, 2012 13:30 1st Post
With the advances in mirror less cameras such as Fuji X series and the quality of their lenses, would you consider life without a DSLR?

I am assuming that folks making a living with a camera or those with such hobbies as sports or bird photography would not part with a DSLR.

I can see where a smaller system which gives very good photos for the general photographer would be intriguing not to mention less weight and volume. One may be more prone to taking the photo gear more often when out and about.

When I get bored I get to thinking outside my very tiny box.:rofl:



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Gary


Posted by Robert: Tue Nov 27th, 2012 16:16 2nd Post
Interesting thought Gary, it makes me consider why I have a camera.

1) To keep a pictorial record of myself, my family, holidays, events and my surroundings.

2) To record work projects, jobs I have done and record progress, illustrate reports for clients.

3) For illustrations for publication.

4) Product photography for clients.

5) Hobby photography, wildlife, motorsport and landscapes.

For 1 I could manage with a point and shoot, even a phone camera because high image quality isn't a requirement.

For 2 I could probably get by with a higher quality small sensor camera.

For 3, 4 and 5, I feel I need a DSLR and a selection of lenses. Range determined by the subject.

To some degree group 5, Hobby photography kinda requires a DSLR to allow the experimentation and exploring the limits of photography as a hobby in it's own right. I would love a rangefinder digital full format (24 x 36mm) camera possibly with an electronic eye level viewfinder, but I don't think it would replace a DSLR.

Analysing hobby photography a little I think the experience gained from experimentation and 'pushing the limits' helps proficiency for 3 and 4.



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Robert.


Posted by Eric: Tue Nov 27th, 2012 16:20 3rd Post
Squarerigger wrote:
With the advances in mirror less cameras such as Fuji X series and the quality of their lenses, would you consider life without a DSLR?

I am assuming that folks making a living with a camera or those with such hobbies as sports or bird photography would not part with a DSLR.

I can see where a smaller system which gives very good photos for the general photographer would be intriguing not to mention less weight and volume. One may be more prone to taking the photo gear more often when out and about.

When I get bored I get to thinking outside my very tiny box.:rofl:
In the good old days, quite a few professionals functioned with 'just' rangefinder Leicas.

I haven't ever used anything longer than 200mm in my line of work...typically its in the range 18-120. So it's not inconceivable that I could function with Fuji XPro or EX, PROVIDED it is sufficiently responsive.

Although the X100 is capable of matching D3 high ISO quality images it's slow to start up and operate, drains batteries like the D1series Nikons and is too quirky in some of its functions.

Whether the newer models have resolved any of these critiques I don't know. But it would have to be improved significantly,for it to be as 'on demand' as a DSLR.

Of course, as you say, there are also a large number of commercial and hobby activities that require focal lengths beyond those available for the X series. Even with adapters or further range extensions I suspect the body just wont be suitable.

But I am, looking forward to trying the new Fuji to see where it could fit into my recreational photography. Nearly got one last week...but vacillated too long and they are back on back order!!



____________________
Eric


Posted by jk: Tue Nov 27th, 2012 17:09 4th Post
I think that if the AF speed of my Fuji XPro1 was the same as my D3s then I would probably look to offload my DSLR kit but it isnt anywhere like as good.

I will try to get hands on with a Leica M9 when I am in UK next but in fact that is just for my own interest to compare with the Fuji XPro1.
In reality I could ask Ed Constable to discuss with me the whys and wherefores of the situation and probably make a judgement call. He has Leica M9, S2 and Nikon D3X, D800 so is well placed to comment.

We know the quality from the Nikon D800 can match a Leica S2 almost, likewise a Fuji XPro1 can match a Nikon D3s in IQ under certain conditions but in real life use the different cameras strengths and weaknesses start to force a both rather than an either/or situation.


Ed, I look forward to seeing your comments on this. :-)



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Posted by Squarerigger: Tue Nov 27th, 2012 17:48 5th Post
Some very interesting answers here. I brought this up as a result of my investigating possibly purchasing a Fuji X series camera. I have spent a considerable period of time on the Fuji Forum and found it very interesting as an outsider looking in on owners of all three X series bodies.

I started noticing postings from owners of the XPro1 and Xe1 making claims to having dumped their Nikon kits for the Fuji mirror less system. They all seemed to be happy with the decision. Of course, I am sure if one was hasty making this type of move, one would not be so outspoken about the horrible mistake.:-(

Anyway, I had never contemplated making such a move but it got me thinking about having to make a choice between the two systems.

The responses so far are along the the same lines as my own thoughts. Except that Robert and Eric, as usual, have managed to boil them down to well thought out concise points which I like - and wish I could do myself.

As of the present moment, I don't think I could part with my DSLR. Money always being the great leveler of playing fields, tells me I should stay with the DSLR as it checks off more of my needs than the X series. There is nothing "I" can accomplish with the X series that I can't do as well or better with the DSLR.

If money weren't a player ---- well then I wouldn't be asking these stupid questions
:rofl:

I still think it would be lovely to own an X100 to carry around all the time.



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Gary


Posted by Eric: Tue Nov 27th, 2012 18:55 6th Post
Squarerigger wrote:
Some very interesting answers here. I brought this up as a result of my investigating possibly purchasing a Fuji X series camera. I have spent a considerable period of time on the Fuji Forum and found it very interesting as an outsider looking in on owners of all three X series bodies.

I started noticing postings from owners of the XPro1 and Xe1 making claims to having dumped their Nikon kits for the Fuji mirror less system. They all seemed to be happy with the decision. Of course, I am sure if one was hasty making this type of move, one would not be so outspoken about the horrible mistake.:-(

Anyway, I had never contemplated making such a move but it got me thinking about having to make a choice between the two systems.

The responses so far are along the the same lines as my own thoughts. Except that Robert and Eric, as usual, have managed to boil them down to well thought out concise points which I like - and wish I could do myself.

As of the present moment, I don't think I could part with my DSLR. Money always being the great leveler of playing fields, tells me I should stay with the DSLR as it checks off more of my needs than the X series. There is nothing "I" can accomplish with the X series that I can't do as well or better with the DSLR.

If money weren't a player ---- well then I wouldn't be asking these stupid questions
:rofl:

I still think it would be lovely to own an X100 to carry around all the time.
It's a nice idea, but in practise the difference in operation between a Nikon DSLR and the X100 is quite significant. In fact, it's part of the Fujis raision d'ªtre to be different and a bit retro quirky. This difference in operation can disrupt your photography. So there is some sense in abandoning one format to concentrate on another. The problem is ...the DSLR is still in pole position!

Having tried to run the two systems in parallel, when I need to concentrate, I endup using the DSLR.

I also feel the people on the X100 forum who claim to have ditched their DSLR are either forcing it to work (inspite of its limitation) or aren't concerned about the real issues I listed...or are not telling the whole truth!



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Eric


Posted by Robert: Tue Nov 27th, 2012 19:10 7th Post
Having run D1/D1x and D200 together, I found the operation very similar, mainly two command dials. They simplify the operation of the root functions of the camera.

Now I have a D3100 I find the menu driven control very slow and cumbersome by comparison and as Eric says, I then reach for the D200 and it's more manual controls.

I am still trying to figure how to control the exposure compensation for the built in flash on the D3100. OK, rtfm but I resent having to read the manual for such a basic function.



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Robert.


Posted by Constable: Wed Nov 28th, 2012 00:48 8th Post
The question is one that will become ever more important I think.

I think that it was Churchill, who said on meeting someone called Bossom that it was neother one thing nor the other. I sold on my Leice M kit on that basis. Too heavy and big for a carry around whe travelling. Less flexible than DSLR for other things ... But lenses to die for.

I do mainly macro photography and nature.

For macro, there is not really anything to give competition to DSLR or MF (yet?).

My carry about when travelling is a NEX 7 with a pancake and an 18-200 in my bag if I can carry it ( the mac book air leaves space)

I have startedusing the V1 with a 300 F4 (800 mm equivalent) for birding when I do not want to carry a lot of weight. It is not in the same league as the D4 or 800E but gives good resluts. The extra MPs of the V2 might be interesting.

I just analyesd my recent usage in Lightroom. It looks as if I reach for the D4 as first choice. Then the S 2 with the 800E coming in third.

Probably just the big hands factor.

I have been tempted by the Fuji line and the OMD but I think the NEX system is better ... Although the lenses have to catch up. I like a viewfinder to put my eye to, so only the X-Pro appeals.

I want either (i) a D4 with 36 MP plus and useable ISO up to 6400 (no tripod macro work) or (ii) better high ISO ( to 2400) and some long glass (400?) for the S2.

Oh and an unlimited back account!

Ed


Posted by blackfox: Wed Nov 28th, 2012 02:41 9th Post
theres nothing out there thats as responsive or has the quality for wildlife pics as far as i,m aware .i tried the overhyped canon sx40hs last year and although it had a 40x zoom with i.s ,at that range the pics just didn't cut the ice .
at this moment in time i am struggling to decide which to keep as my main camera my d7000 with higher mp/iso-range/and higher dynamic range or my d300s which is a generation older but seems to turn out a better overall photograph .
its nothing to do with progress or functions its just a subtle difference in the actual pics which can't be properly described .perhaps progress isn't all its cracked up to be and the camera makers are losing sight of the end product in there rush to outdo one another o.O


Posted by jk: Wed Nov 28th, 2012 03:16 10th Post
Very interesting posts !
All touch on the little things that I have noticed using the X100 and XPro1 and my DSLRs. This convinces me that there are cameras that need to be used for certain styles or types of photography. All produce great results but some feel more 'natural' to use in some situations. I have defined as yet which is best where.


The D300 versus other Nikons doesnt provide me with the same quality of results I would expect. Annoyingly I cant work out why. I may get the camera converted to IR as an upgrade from my D70 IR converted camera.



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Posted by richw: Wed Nov 28th, 2012 04:53 11th Post
Despite the metering/sticking shutter issue I love my Fuji and will take it out when otherwise I would be camerless - however...

If I want to make sure of the results even if the meter was working I would reach for the D3s first D7000/200 next (day/night) and the Fuji last. I have got some images I like with the X100 but my best images are all with Nikons. If I was off loading cameras the D200 would go first, followed by the X100.


Posted by richw: Wed Nov 28th, 2012 04:54 12th Post
Jac would pick her V1 over all mine however so each to their own.

(P.S. that's how I now have a D7000!)


Posted by Eric: Wed Nov 28th, 2012 05:07 13th Post
Constable wrote: The question is one that will become ever more important I think.

I think that it was Churchill, who said on meeting someone called Bossom that it was neother one thing nor the other. I sold on my Leice M kit on that basis. Too heavy and big for a carry around whe travelling. Less flexible than DSLR for other things ... But lenses to die for.

I do mainly macro photography and nature.

For macro, there is not really anything to give competition to DSLR or MF (yet?).

My carry about when travelling is a NEX 7 with a pancake and an 18-200 in my bag if I can carry it ( the mac book air leaves space)

I have startedusing the V1 with a 300 F4 (800 mm equivalent) for birding when I do not want to carry a lot of weight. It is not in the same league as the D4 or 800E but gives good resluts. The extra MPs of the V2 might be interesting.

I just analyesd my recent usage in Lightroom. It looks as if I reach for the D4 as first choice. Then the S 2 with the 800E coming in third.

Probably just the big hands factor.

I have been tempted by the Fuji line and the OMD but I think the NEX system is better ... Although the lenses have to catch up. I like a viewfinder to put my eye to, so only the X-Pro appeals.

I want either (i) a D4 with 36 MP plus and useable ISO up to 6400 (no tripod macro work) or (ii) better high ISO ( to 2400) and some long glass (400?) for the S2.

Oh and an unlimited back account!

EdHadn't heard that Chuchill quote...excellent!



____________________
Eric


Posted by richw: Wed Nov 28th, 2012 05:33 14th Post
My favourite X100 image so far:


Edit - bugger I've forgotten how to link from the gallery could someone please remind me?





Attachment: Paul Taylor.jpg (Downloaded 60 times)


Posted by Eric: Wed Nov 28th, 2012 05:40 15th Post
I think we tend to overlook the evolution that the SLR went through pre digital. It was already honed into the 'right' shape in smooth casings and in a range of sizes/weights that suited most hands, with knobs and switches in ergonomic places... long before the digital sensor was added.

We all settle for a specific camera model based on its compatibility with our finances and its intended use at that time. Generally speaking they all 'feel' similar in the hand.

But when we try to branch out from this 'comfort zone', we invariably experience difficulties, awkwardness and incompatibilities with our established methods.

Ideally we need to decide where we are going, why we are going there and what is the best equipment setup for us.

Trouble is, there is 'make do' attititude in all but the most decicated perfectionists.

I have wellington boots...just now I ran out to the garage in the rain...in my carpet slippers. Because it wasnt worth changing for a few minutes.
Trouble is, I have a hole in my slipper's sole :'().

Knowing this ...I 'limped' across the backyard trying to minimise floor contact with that foot!!! Because it wasnt worth changing for a few minutes.

We frequently use zoom lenses despite them being optically inferior to primes. Because it wasnt worth changing for a few minutes.


All we are really doing, in trying to assign DSLRs to history, is hoping for something to replace it that has less bulk and weight, that can be used any time, any place, any situation ...but that retains its image quality and performance.

But in doing so, there will be trade offs and these will not be acceptable to everyone. Or at least, it will take some more evolutionary time to get it 'as right as the SLR'.



I now have a wet sock!:byebye:






____________________
Eric


Posted by Eric: Wed Nov 28th, 2012 05:48 16th Post
richw wrote: My favourite X100 image so far:


Edit - bugger I've forgotten how to link from the gallery could someone please remind me?





Great shot Rich...deserves to  be left in the thread not hidden in the gallery!

I assume its not your Mum in Martlesham Heath?

:rofl::rofl:



____________________
Eric


Posted by richw: Wed Nov 28th, 2012 05:58 17th Post
Eric wrote:
richw wrote: My favourite X100 image so far:


Edit - bugger I've forgotten how to link from the gallery could someone please remind me?





Great shot Rich...deserves to  be left in the thread not hidden in the gallery!



I assume its not your Mum in Martlesham Heath?

:rofl::rofl:
Not quite, she doesn't bother with gloves!

No he's a great guy who is the CEO of our local Gym and believe it or not a full Research Professor of Neuroscience. This was taken just before his first 'Pro' boxing fight.

I took the D3s to photograph the event and when I got there discovered it's battery was still in the charger at home - glad I was only there as a spectator! I did have the X100 with me as well though and got some nice shots with that.

I've tried to give this a vintage fight photo look, including adding noise! (after all these years trying to eliminate it!)


Posted by richw: Wed Nov 28th, 2012 06:17 18th Post
I've added a few more of the X100 images from this night.

http://nikondslr.uk/photos/showgallery.php?cat=567

All done with a broken camera by adjusting the speed manually and looking the histogram, and then tiding up in Lightroom afterwards.

Some of my friends who didn't know photography was my hobby were very complimentary afterwards. If only I had that D3s battery :dumb:

But back on topic - the reason for posting these is I guess you can get by without a DSLR but I know I would have done a lot better with one and maybe taken some real gems.

When taking these images with the X100 I had to really try and anticipate the shot ahead of time, allow for the relatively slow camera and then it took ages for the viewer to come back to real time. Not a problem for the portraits, but it made the actual boxing shots very hard indeed, I would have got many more keepers of probably a far higher quality with the D3s. I know this is stating the obvious - but I am not by any means a sports shooter but it is very nice to have a camera that can do this when you want (assuming you don't leave the battery at home).


Posted by Squarerigger: Wed Nov 28th, 2012 07:36 19th Post
Eric wrote:
I think we tend to overlook the evolution that the SLR went through pre digital. It was already honed into the 'right' shape in smooth casings and in a range of sizes/weights that suited most hands, with knobs and switches in ergonomic places... long before the digital sensor was added.

We all settle for a specific camera model based on its compatibility with our finances and its intended use at that time. Generally speaking they all 'feel' similar in the hand.

But when we try to branch out from this 'comfort zone', we invariably experience difficulties, awkwardness and incompatibilities with our established methods.

Ideally we need to decide where we are going, why we are going there and what is the best equipment setup for us.

Trouble is, there is 'make do' attititude in all but the most decicated perfectionists.

I have wellington boots...just now I ran out to the garage in the rain...in my carpet slippers. Because it wasnt worth changing for a few minutes.
Trouble is, I have a hole in my slipper's sole :'().

Knowing this ...I 'limped' across the backyard trying to minimise floor contact with that foot!!! Because it wasnt worth changing for a few minutes.

We frequently use zoom lenses despite them being optically inferior to primes. Because it wasnt worth changing for a few minutes.


All we are really doing, in trying to assign DSLRs to history, is hoping for something to replace it that has less bulk and weight, that can be used any time, any place, any situation ...but that retains its image quality and performance.

But in doing so, there will be trade offs and these will not be acceptable to everyone. Or at least, it will take some more evolutionary time to get it 'as right as the SLR'.



I now have a wet sock!:byebye:
Well stated Eric. One thing most of us on here have in common is we all lived through the evolution of the SLR. Our entire "career" as photo hobbyists and professionals has been linked to the SLR and then the DSLR. We are hard wired to the SLR and having lens combinations which allow us to accomplish what we seek.

One over riding deficiency I keep seeing with the mirror less system is the auto focus ability. I remember having my first two Nikon SLR's and obviously they were manual focus. I got pretty proficient at focusing quickly but then SLR's had wonderful focus screens. I am pretty sure the auto focus on my D7000 is many times faster than I was with manual focus on my FM.

A little "magic foam" in the slippers hole and you can dash to the garage in comfort Eric.:thumbsup:



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Gary


Posted by Squarerigger: Wed Nov 28th, 2012 07:39 20th Post
Great shot Rich. I would not figure him for one to have any discipline problems in class.



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Gary


Posted by Eric: Wed Nov 28th, 2012 10:14 21st Post
Isn't it interesting?

I was going to respond to Rich's reference to his gallery X100 shots, by saying that I used my X100 a lot while wandering round the French markets. I found it 'convenient and unobtrusive, for shooting candid shots from the waist (ie with it just hung round my neck)

I was going to say 'my french market shots in the gallery were with the X100'.

As it turns out most of them were with the D7000!!!!!!!

Which surprised me...but it sort of reinforces my point that despite the X100 being ideal for street photography, for some reason I opted to use the D7000.

:baffled:




____________________
Eric


Posted by TomOC: Wed Nov 28th, 2012 15:10 22nd Post
Well, I missed most of this post.

I cannot imagine life without my DSLRs. main reason would be the use of telephoto lenses. Putting a long lens on a rangefinder camera pretty much defeats the purpose of lightweight portable shooting.

On the other hand, I can't imagine ever taking DSLR on a plane trip again.

Tom



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-Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem.

Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh


Posted by Constable: Wed Nov 28th, 2012 16:14 23rd Post
Tom

This is an example of the NEX 7 with the zoom on it at 200 mm. Heavily cropped, through the kitchen window, handheld and in lousy light.

It isn't great but certainly better than nothing.

Ed

Attachment: DSC00624_v1.jpg (Downloaded 54 times)


Posted by jk: Wed Nov 28th, 2012 17:07 24th Post
Looks fine to me Ed.
i think the new NEX6 looks good as well.



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Posted by Eric: Thu Nov 29th, 2012 12:19 25th Post
Constable wrote: Tom

This is an example of the NEX 7 with the zoom on it at 200 mm. Heavily cropped, through the kitchen window, handheld and in lousy light.

It isn't great but certainly better than nothing.

Ed Not only a good capture but a Crested Tit no less!!!! I have to go to Scotland to see them.... very envious!



Is that the Sony 55-210mm zoom that comes with the camera?




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Eric


Posted by Eric: Thu Nov 29th, 2012 12:26 26th Post
TomOC wrote: Well, I missed most of this post.

I cannot imagine life without my DSLRs. main reason would be the use of telephoto lenses. Putting a long lens on a rangefinder camera pretty much defeats the purpose of lightweight portable shooting.

On the other hand, I can't imagine ever taking DSLR on a plane trip again.

Tom Very good points.

We dont take plane trips much these days as we drive most places in europe. That being the case I put a long lens in the back of the car... just in case. But with the choice in the bag for walking around, I still seem to favour the DSLR. Maybe if the X100 was an EX or XPro with a (lazy) zoom I might respond differently.

:baffled:



____________________
Eric


Posted by Squarerigger: Thu Nov 29th, 2012 15:07 27th Post
TomOC wrote:
Well, I missed most of this post.

I cannot imagine life without my DSLRs. main reason would be the use of telephoto lenses. Putting a long lens on a rangefinder camera pretty much defeats the purpose of lightweight portable shooting.

On the other hand, I can't imagine ever taking DSLR on a plane trip again.

Tom
After retirement, the only plane rides I take are for vacations and I always take the DSLR kit. I want to be able to capture every aspect of my vacation with the best equipment I own because I will probably never return to that location. I agree it's a PITA to travel these days and carrying a DSLR kit makes it more so, but I'm not sure I could bring myself to leave the DSLR at home. Having my wife carry the equipment helps. :rofl:



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Gary


Posted by Constable: Thu Nov 29th, 2012 15:30 28th Post
Hi Eric

No it is the new image stabilised 18-200 that I picked up between flights in Singapore last week.

Ed


Posted by richw: Fri Nov 30th, 2012 03:53 29th Post
Constable wrote:
Hi Eric

No it is the new image stabilised 18-200 that I picked up between flights in Singapore last week.

Ed

Mmmm NEX (6 or 7) with 18 to 200. You have me questioning now. What's the high ISO like?


Posted by jk: Fri Nov 30th, 2012 04:20 30th Post
NEX6 has much better much control layout than the NEX7.
Only difference apparently is the extra MP of the NEX7. NEX6 has 16MP v. 24MP in the  NEX7.

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/sony-alpha-nex-6/



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Posted by Iain: Fri Nov 30th, 2012 08:44 31st Post
The one I have taken a fancy to is the Olympus OMD, I think it is the retro look and feel but it will have to stay in the shop as I have other things to buy first.


Posted by Constable: Fri Nov 30th, 2012 10:09 32nd Post
Rich

I´ll send sou some examples of high iso at night in when I get home this evening.

it is Ok (i.e. not a D4 but with subtle or not so subtle LR or CS6 or even my new discovery of Photoninja gives good results).

Ed


Posted by jk: Fri Nov 30th, 2012 11:50 33rd Post
Ed, How do you find the NEX7 interface controls ?
The NEX6 is meant to be much better with the MASP dial on the top.

I guess that the whole EVIL market is still developing.

The Fuji XPro1 has rough edges that have been smoothed out with the newer but junior XE1.



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Posted by Constable: Fri Nov 30th, 2012 12:30 34th Post
Hi JK

In a word ... lousy. I agree with all of the reviews that criticise the menu system. It takes a long time to work through the non-intuitive menus to set up the way that you want. But it is worth persevering. The main problem is that the default settings are essentially P&S.

The attached is for Rich, ISO 1600, f 8, 1/16 handheld.

Downsized hugely for the web. The noise on the original is fine.

Attachment: DSC00474.jpg (Downloaded 28 times)


Posted by jk: Fri Nov 30th, 2012 13:30 35th Post
Oh dear. But you seem to have very nice output. The blacks are very black and seem relatively noise free.

You say you are using PhotoNinja for the NR. I have that as well but I'm not sure how or if it works with other software. Like with Bibble5 of old.



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Posted by Constable: Fri Nov 30th, 2012 13:47 36th Post
Err ... why Oh dear??

Ed


Posted by Eric: Fri Nov 30th, 2012 14:02 37th Post
Constable wrote: Err ... why Oh dear??

Ed Think JK was referring to the lousy menu complexities you mentioned.

That look a nice clean image .



____________________
Eric


Posted by jk: Fri Nov 30th, 2012 14:51 38th Post
Eric wrote: Constable wrote: Err ... why Oh dear??

Ed Think JK was referring to the lousy menu complexities you mentioned.

That look a nice clean image .
Yes.  That was what I was commenting about.
At present I am debating the why's and wherefore's of getting a Fuji XE1 with 18-55 zoom.

The combined kit price is £1089 but the camera alone price is £689 and the lens £599.
But do I really want the XE1 camera body as I already have the XPro1 with 18mm f2.0, 35mm f1.4, 60mm f2.4 lenses.   These are very good lenses but the new zoom has much less CA than the 18mm and is a great walk-about lens as it covers the full range of all the primes.
However the new Sony NEX6 with 16-50 would do the same for £800 and with the 55-200 for a total of £1000 which is less than the Fuji XE1 kit.   But I dont want to have another camera make and lenses!

Also there are the problems of the support of the new Fuji XTrans sensors whilst the Sony stuff is bog standard sensor technology.

I suppose I should wait to the end of January which is the traditional price drop time for camera kit.

Choices, choices!!



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Posted by richw: Fri Nov 30th, 2012 17:28 39th Post
jk wrote:
Eric wrote: Constable wrote: Err ... why Oh dear??

Ed Think JK was referring to the lousy menu complexities you mentioned.

That look a nice clean image .
Yes.  That was what I was commenting about.
At present I am debating the why's and wherefore's of getting a Fuji XE1 with 18-55 zoom.

The combined kit price is £1089 but the camera alone price is £689 and the lens £599.
But do I really want the XE1 camera body as I already have the XPro1 with 18mm f2.0, 35mm f1.4, 60mm f2.4 lenses.   These are very good lenses but the new zoom has much less CA than the 18mm and is a great walk-about lens as it covers the full range of all the primes.
However the new Sony NEX6 with 16-50 would do the same for £800 and with the 55-200 for a total of £1000 which is less than the Fuji XE1 kit.   But I dont want to have another camera make and lenses!

Also there are the problems of the support of the new Fuji XTrans sensors whilst the Sony stuff is bog standard sensor technology.

I suppose I should wait to the end of January which is the traditional price drop time for camera kit.

Choices, choices!!

I'll add my own Oh Dear - the growing urge to spend money!

I need to get some of Eric's Yorkshire thrift going, should be possible as my Dad's family are all from there!


Posted by richw: Sat Dec 1st, 2012 00:38 40th Post
Ok I visited the Sony store. The NEX6 & 7 were very nice indeed), the sales man was working hard trying to push me towards the 7. However the difference between them and a D7000 is not compelling enough to push me in that direction...... yet. I feel in the future this may be where I end up.


What was stunning was the RX100.

It's tiny, a fraction of the size of the Fuji X100, about the size of a pack of cards, with the same size sensor roughly as the Nikon V1/2. A quick play in the store at ISO 3200 and zooming in on the back of the camera showed a bit of noise but usable.

I kept holding it up to my eye though - it would take a while to get used to no view finder.

I think one of these might find it's way into my Christmas bag, it's the perfect camera to take out when you don't want to take a camera.

Wouldn't replace my DSLRs but very nice to have, maybe more so than the Fuji.


Posted by Constable: Sat Dec 1st, 2012 03:56 41st Post
Hi Rich

Don't underestimate the "putting it up to the eye" effect.

I really cannot get on without an OVF.

Ed


Posted by Eric: Sat Dec 1st, 2012 08:41 42nd Post
richw wrote

I'll add my own Oh Dear - the growing urge to spend money!

I need to get some of Eric's Yorkshire thrift going, should be possible as my Dad's family are all from there! The Most High Priests of Whippet and Pigeon Fancying have threatened me with excommunication after news was leaked that I bought something this week.

It wasnt the RX100 as I agree with Ed about not underestimating the need for an eye viewfinder.

It wasnt the XE1 as I am not convinced the shortage of focal length options wouldnt drive me back to DSLR.

It wasnt the NEX, because....I havent tried one yet.








____________________
Eric


Posted by Constable: Sat Dec 1st, 2012 10:14 43rd Post
Eric wrote:
richw wrote

I'll add my own Oh Dear - the growing urge to spend money!

I need to get some of Eric's Yorkshire thrift going, should be possible as my Dad's family are all from there! The Most High Priests of Whippet and Pigeon Fancying have threatened me with excommunication after news was leaked that I bought something this week.

It wasnt the RX100 as I agree with Ed about not underestimating the need for an eye viewfinder.

It wasnt the XE1 as I am not convinced the shortage of focal length options wouldnt drive me back to DSLR.

It wasnt the NEX, because....I havent tried one yet.
D600????

:devil:


Posted by Constable: Sat Dec 1st, 2012 10:16 44th Post
or V2???

Ed


Posted by Squarerigger: Sat Dec 1st, 2012 10:45 45th Post
Eric wrote:
richw wrote

I'll add my own Oh Dear - the growing urge to spend money!

I need to get some of Eric's Yorkshire thrift going, should be possible as my Dad's family are all from there! The Most High Priests of Whippet and Pigeon Fancying have threatened me with excommunication after news was leaked that I bought something this week.

It wasnt the RX100 as I agree with Ed about not underestimating the need for an eye viewfinder.

It wasnt the XE1 as I am not convinced the shortage of focal length options wouldnt drive me back to DSLR.

It wasnt the NEX, because....I havent tried one yet.

Leica M Digital Rangefinder in silver with assorted lenses as a stocking stuffer for yourself. Well done Eric!!

On the other hand, you were going on about the condition of a certain pair of slippers.

Not to steal your thunder, but I ordered a special item on 11/28 and had permission from my chief of staff.



____________________
--------------------------------------------
Gary


Posted by jk: Sat Dec 1st, 2012 12:00 46th Post
V2 comes with a rebate so I reckon that is a winner but I got a NPS offer for a very cheap V1.

I'm holding until after Christmas/ late January.



____________________
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Posted by Eric: Sat Dec 1st, 2012 12:23 47th Post
Squarerigger wrote: Eric wrote:
richw wrote

I'll add my own Oh Dear - the growing urge to spend money!

I need to get some of Eric's Yorkshire thrift going, should be possible as my Dad's family are all from there! The Most High Priests of Whippet and Pigeon Fancying have threatened me with excommunication after news was leaked that I bought something this week.

It wasnt the RX100 as I agree with Ed about not underestimating the need for an eye viewfinder.

It wasnt the XE1 as I am not convinced the shortage of focal length options wouldnt drive me back to DSLR.

It wasnt the NEX, because....I havent tried one yet.

Leica M Digital Rangefinder in silver with assorted lenses as a stocking stuffer for yourself. Well done Eric!!

On the other hand, you were going on about the condition of a certain pair of slippers.

Not to steal your thunder, but I ordered a special item on 11/28 and had permission from my chief of staff. :rofl::rofl:

I wasnt meaning to prompt a guessing game ...just shocking everyone that my wallet had opened. And sorry to disappoint, not photography related.

But it wasnt slippers.....a waterproof bandaid seems to have sorted that.

:rofl::rofl:

I have however sold 2 lenses this week and banked the proceeds...so maybe a bit of redemption will come my way when the High Priests have their monthly Pie and Mash fine cuisine night to discuss reprobates.












____________________
Eric


Posted by Squarerigger: Sat Dec 1st, 2012 15:35 48th Post
Sorry Eric, I just got caught up in the moment. :rofl:

I still think a nice pair of slippers would be nice :thumbsup:



____________________
--------------------------------------------
Gary


Posted by Eric: Sat Dec 1st, 2012 16:27 49th Post
Squarerigger wrote:
Sorry Eric, I just got caught up in the moment. :rofl:

I still think a nice pair of slippers would be nice :thumbsup:
Don't tell me!

Send a note to Santa on my behalf.;-)


On second thoughts, don't. Nothing sadder than slippers (perhaps underpants?) as a present.

:rofl:



____________________
Eric


Posted by Constable: Sat Dec 1st, 2012 19:51 50th Post
:doh:

SOCKS!

:rudi::rudi::rudi:

And the return of Rudi!

Ed


Posted by Eric: Sun Dec 2nd, 2012 08:02 51st Post
Constable wrote:
:doh:

SOCKS!

:rudi::rudi::rudi:

And the return of Rudi!

Ed

Arrrrghhh!!!!



____________________
Eric


Posted by Squarerigger: Sun Dec 2nd, 2012 12:12 52nd Post
Gosh Eric and Ed, I was going to get you guys this front door mat for Christmas but guessing from your comments, it would probably not be well received.

:-(

You guys are a hard crowd to buy for. Next you'll be bad mouthing neck ties.:rofl:

Attachment: 16678_meds.jpg (Downloaded 33 times)



____________________
--------------------------------------------
Gary


Posted by Eric: Sun Dec 2nd, 2012 16:23 53rd Post
Squarerigger wrote:
Gosh Eric and Ed, I was going to get you guys this front door mat for Christmas but guessing from your comments, it would probably not be well received.

:-(

You guys are a hard crowd to buy for. Next you'll be bad mouthing neck ties.:rofl:
Neck ties? ah yes I remember those!

When I left the corporate world, 17 years ago, to set up my photography and design business, I swore I would never wear a suit and tie for work ever again. ( the artistic gypsy in me) LOL

I was lucky that a group of clients I picked up in the early days were all Plymouth Brethren. For those who don't know the Brethren, they are a religious group with strict adherence to the scriptures wording which has resulted in many rigid and sometimes bizarre 'beliefs'.

One of them is that neckties are unacceptable personal embellishment. I was never sure where in the Bible it ever mentioned neckties, never mind not to wear them...but I digress.
All the men have open necked shirts and the women have headscarves. They are, I suppose, a sort of watered down Armish. (no disrespect intended as they are genuine nice people to work for!)

So they were ideal clients for me. I could turn up to meetings in casual attire. But one day I was visiting Campbell's Grocery Products factory on the same trading estate and I reverted to previous form and wore a jacket and tie for the marketing meeting. After the meeting as I left the factory I was waiting at traffic lights and opposite me waiting to go the other direction was the Chairman of the Brethren company. We exchanged waves as we drove off...but at our next meeting he (mischievously) said "So you think we aren't as important enough as Campbell's, to wear a tie?"

I can't recall now, how I fended off the jovial scolding, but it wasn't one of my quick responses. I was a bit concerned I had insulted them in some way by mimickery. As it was it was all laughed off and we enjoyed 10 years of profitable open necked business together.

But from then on i never wore a tie, not even to blue chip clients...... Unnecessary personal embellishment!!


:rofl:



____________________
Eric


Posted by Squarerigger: Sun Dec 2nd, 2012 16:38 54th Post
Great story Eric. I was fortunate having a career in the military where we wore a tie only when in trouble or for our annual photo to go into our promotion packets.



____________________
--------------------------------------------
Gary


Posted by Eric: Sun Dec 2nd, 2012 17:06 55th Post
Squarerigger wrote:
Great story Eric. I was fortunate having a career in the military where we wore a tie only when in trouble or for our annual photo to go into our promotion packets.
But it's a strange custom really.
Wrap a piece of cloth round your neck, knot it in a simulated noose and pull it tight.
o.O



____________________
Eric


Posted by jk: Sun Dec 2nd, 2012 17:16 56th Post
Eric wrote:
Squarerigger wrote:
Gosh Eric and Ed, I was going to get you guys this front door mat for Christmas but guessing from your comments, it would probably not be well received.

:-(

You guys are a hard crowd to buy for. Next you'll be bad mouthing neck ties.:rofl:
Neck ties? ah yes I remember those!

When I left the corporate world, 17 years ago, to set up my photography and design business, I swore I would never wear a suit and tie for work ever again. ( the artistic gypsy in me) LOL

I was lucky that a group of clients I picked up in the early days were all Plymouth Brethren. For those who don't know the Brethren, they are a religious group with strict adherence to the scriptures wording which has resulted in many rigid and sometimes bizarre 'beliefs'.

One of them is that neckties are unacceptable personal embellishment. I was never sure where in the Bible it ever mentioned neckties, never mind not to wear them...but I digress.
All the men have open necked shirts and the women have headscarves. They are, I suppose, a sort of watered down Armish. (no disrespect intended as they are genuine nice people to work for!)

So they were ideal clients for me. I could turn up to meetings in casual attire. But one day I was visiting Campbell's Grocery Products factory on the same trading estate and I reverted to previous form and wore a jacket and tie for the marketing meeting. After the meeting as I left the factory I was waiting at traffic lights and opposite me waiting to go the other direction was the Chairman of the Brethren company. We exchanged waves as we drove off...but at our next meeting he (mischievously) said "So you think we aren't as important enough as Campbell's, to wear a tie?"

I can't recall now, how I fended off the jovial scolding, but it wasn't one of my quick responses. I was a bit concerned I had insulted them in some way by mimickery. As it was it was all laughed off and we enjoyed 10 years of profitable open necked business together.

But from then on i never wore a tie, not even to blue chip clients...... Unnecessary personal embellishment!!


:rofl: Great story Eric.

:lol:
I used to have to wear a tie when I moved from the labs to IT. However I managed to convince my boss that wearing a tie was not considered suitable when working with clients from R&D but I still had to have a tie in the drawer so if I was meeting clinical or marketing customer I could wear one.

I'm sure that now there must be a HSE ruling against wearing ties!

:devil::devil:



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Posted by TomOC: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 02:45 57th Post
Well, I finally got home to pick up my pacakages... The xe1 is just about what I expected. The EVF is definitely a touch "faster" than the xp1 and i don't have to buy a separate diopter for it. The build is slightly, every so slightly weaker than the xp1 (and maybe the x100) but it handles nicely - though there is no specifically designed "Thumbs Up" for it yet and I will want one - it's easier to hold than the x100 without thumbsup but it still needs one.

I'm leaving tomorrow for a few days in NYC and sadly will be leaving it behind - really doesn't fit in one's pocket even with the 18mm attached - will it sort of does, but I'm taking the x100 to be sure it can go where I go :-).

Better report when I get back.

Cheers,

Tom



____________________
Tom O'Connell

-Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem.

Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh


Posted by jk: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 03:38 58th Post
Thanks Tom.
Look forward to hearing more when you get back from NYC, the 18-55 zoom is getting good reviews.
Did you get the XE1 body or the kit with zoom?



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Still learning after all these years!
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Posted by TomOC: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 10:51 59th Post
Jk-

Just bought the body. Plan to use only the primes at this point.

Really thinking the ultimate prime for these cameras will be the Zeiss 28mm due next spring. Till then I'm playing with a Leica 28mm and the Fuju 18 and 35.

The Leica lens is great but it's just not reasonable to be only manual focus and the the one lens you take on a trip. The Zeiss lens will support all fuji functionality.

Tom



____________________
Tom O'Connell

-Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem.

Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh


Posted by Ray Ninness: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 11:00 60th Post
All this talk of abandoning the DSLR!!!!!

I started in photography when the rangefinder reigned supreme!! Yep I'm that old.. I was lured away and into the SLR gambit in the early 60's, and basically stayed there until 1997, and beyond. But in 1997 I decided to give the Leica M6 a shot again, but not an exclusive one!!

I remember when I first started shooting the SLR and I was bothered by the "Viewfinder Blackout" at the moment of creating the image.. It seemed so wrong :-) Of course it was the reverse when I switched beck to the M6 in 1997!!!

Both systems have there strong suites, I always liked the rangefinders for up close and personal work, street photography, etc. Back when I started in the 1950's Color wasn't an option, Tri-X was the norm for me. And when I started back shooting  shooting rangefinders again in the 1990's I again migrated to B/W and pretty much only shot Tri-X of CN B/W in the M6's

This time around should I get a Mirrorless box and I think it will happen sooner of later, it will like wise be part of a total system, and not exclusive.. But I'll definately be shooting color this time around!!

3:)



____________________
Ray Ninness
F8Photos.com
Bedford, New Hampshire
USA


Posted by jk: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 14:25 61st Post
Ray, the Fuji XPro1 (or X100 if you discount that it has a fixed lens) is the closest equivalent to your M6 but with AF instead of rangefinder focussing. Manual focussing is best done through the EVF rather than back TFT or OVF.


However the 4/3 sensors whilst being the most popular sensor size doest (IMHO) provide the quality you get from an DX sized sensor.



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Posted by Ray Ninness: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 15:46 62nd Post
jk wrote: Ray, the Fuji XPro1 (or X100 if you discount that it has a fixed lens) is the closest equivalent to your M6 but with AF instead of rangefinder focussing. Manual focussing is best done through the EVF rather than back TFT or OVF.


However the 4/3 sensors whilst being the most popular sensor size doest (IMHO) provide the quality you get from an DX sized sensor.
I liked the XPro 1 I tried, but I like doing wide angle work with a camera like that, so I'll hold out for something close to a full frame model?? I did get my hands on the Sony 7 mirrorless with the EVF, but they didn't have a charged battery. I may wonder back in a few days and shoot a few images onto my own card and she how that look on the computer. In the past I was always left wanting for Sony still image quality???

But it still a tiny sensor for all those MP????



o.O



____________________
Ray Ninness
F8Photos.com
Bedford, New Hampshire
USA


Posted by jk: Mon Dec 3rd, 2012 16:04 63rd Post
There is a 12mm f2.8 coming from Zeiss next year.
This on the XPro1 is equivalent to a 18mm FX.
I use my Sigma (Nikon fit) 12-24mm on a Kipon adapter if I want this wide a lens. You hardly need to focus this lens so whilst it is large on the camera it is a dream to use.



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Posted by Ed Hutchinson: Wed Dec 5th, 2012 01:32 64th Post
:applause::applause::rofl::bowing::bowing::bowing::hi::thumbsup
To all the comments I agree, I am not quite as up to date as some but I find that what I have works very well foe me
I love my d200 as it reminds me of my dearly loved f2s,that I still miss but I would not go back to the hassles of film
I also have a d80 as a back up with a different lens and a p5000 the p5000 is a backup to the backup and not much good for anything that moves faster than a turtle. I can never catch the feline with it, no prob with the dslr.

be well

Ed

a fine is a tax for doing wrong, a tax is a fine for doing well!!!!!

:cheers: :bowing:



____________________
R.O.C.E.D. retired old cranky extremely dangerous!


Posted by jk: Wed Dec 5th, 2012 11:05 65th Post
Couldnt resist it. Had to order the Fuji 18-55mm f2.8-f4 zoom lens for my XPro1, so hopefully it will arrive here before Christmas so I can test it out.

I now dont need to get the XE1 as well or the NEX6..... Famous last words :lol:



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Posted by Ray Ninness: Thu Dec 6th, 2012 08:54 66th Post
jk wrote: Couldnt resist it. Had to order the Fuji 18-55mm f2.8-f4 zoom lens for my XPro1, so hopefully it will arrive here before Christmas so I can test it out.

I now dont need to get the XE1 as well or the NEX6..... Famous last words :lol:You resistant quotation has always bee suspect!!

:rtfm:



____________________
Ray Ninness
F8Photos.com
Bedford, New Hampshire
USA


Posted by jk: Thu Dec 6th, 2012 11:00 67th Post
Ray Ninness wrote: jk wrote: Couldnt resist it. Had to order the Fuji 18-55mm f2.8-f4 zoom lens for my XPro1, so hopefully it will arrive here before Christmas so I can test it out.

I now dont need to get the XE1 as well or the NEX6..... Famous last words :lol:You resistant quotation has always been suspect!!

:rtfm:
 Well you cant take money with you when you die and if it is the bank it doesnt grow or get much interest so might as well get some enjoyment from having it available by purchase of nice toys.



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Posted by Constable: Sun Dec 9th, 2012 09:07 68th Post
Sorry about the size of the attachment but I think it is justified ...

What is the verdict on the Nikon 1 V2? Ugly as sin but it seems it can deliver.

V2, FT-1, 300 mm f4, NEF converted to 16-bit TIFF in NX2, tweaked in LR4 (LR4 has no support for V2 NEFs yet).

It isn't a D4 or a D800, but it is not bad.

Ed

Attachment: DSC_0129-2.jpg (Downloaded 28 times)


Posted by jk: Sun Dec 9th, 2012 12:18 69th Post
Ed, What ISO was that taken at?
How does the V1 and V2 results compare.
.



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Posted by Constable: Sun Dec 9th, 2012 12:35 70th Post
That one was base iso .... But iso 400 is ok with a bit of noise suppression in LR.

V2 does not AF so well with FT-1 as the V1 in low light. Fixable in firmware I guess

Ed


Posted by TomOC: Sun Dec 9th, 2012 15:15 71st Post
Ed-

Lest anyone argue with you about the D200, let me refer them to a movie we just saw about James Balog, an incredible nature photog, titled CHASING ICE. As an aside, I recommend all nikon shooters to see it :-) (canon folks will be disappointed :-)

He has a huge number of D200s all over the world anchored on tripods drilled into rock taking time lapse pix of glaciers as the recede and calf and generally change - it's pretty amazing photography and the D200 images look great on literally FULL SCREEN :-) !!!

TOM


Ed Hutchinson wrote:
:applause::applause::rofl::bowing::bowing::bowing::hi::thumbsup
To all the comments I agree, I am not quite as up to date as some but I find that what I have works very well foe me
I love my d200 as it reminds me of my dearly loved f2s,that I still miss but I would not go back to the hassles of film
I also have a d80 as a back up with a different lens and a p5000 the p5000 is a backup to the backup and not much good for anything that moves faster than a turtle. I can never catch the feline with it, no prob with the dslr.

be well

Ed

a fine is a tax for doing wrong, a tax is a fine for doing well!!!!!

:cheers: :bowing:



____________________
Tom O'Connell

-Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem.

Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh

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