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| Z Series arrives | Rating: 
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| Posted by jk: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 02:53 | 1st Post |
| The cameras. https://www.nikon.co.uk/en_GB/products/category_pages/digital_cameras/mirrorless/overview.page The F lens adapter https://www.nikon.co.uk/en_GB/product/accessories/mirrorless/mirrorless-adapters/ftz-mount-adapter
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| Posted by jk: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 02:55 | 2nd Post |
| The first impressions review. https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-z7-first-impressions-review
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| Posted by jk: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 03:01 | 3rd Post |
| Fuller information from Nikon. https://www.nikon.co.uk/en_GB/product/digital-cameras/mirrorless/professional/nikon-z-7
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| Posted by jk: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 05:10 | 4th Post |
| Battery is as I expected EN-EL15 battery but a new (b) version of it, EN-EL15b. Battery life is 300-330 shots. Cameras will use the XQD cards only. I think some needs to make an adapter XQD card that allows SD cards to be used as well. Yes there may be a speed compromise but it allows wider use. Prices are as expected. Z7 (45MP) body £3399, Z6 (24MP) body £2099 Z adapter £100 Great price. Prices Z7/Z6 Camera plus 24-70 f4 zoom +Z adapter £4099 ,£2799 Camera plus 24-70 f4 zoom £3999 ,£2699
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| Posted by jk: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 05:31 | 5th Post |
| This will please Eric. "an ultra-high-resolution electronic viewfinder with 3.6 million dots and 0.8x magnification, along with a 3.2" 2.1M-dot tilting touchscreen display on the rear of the camera. "
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| Posted by GeoffR: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 08:32 | 6th Post |
| Having checked the confirmed dimensions I see that it is a bit over twice the size of my 1 J5. That means that it is too small for me, good because I don't have £2,500 to spare to buy one. I will wait and see what the grip does for it when it is available. I can't say that the 300 shots per battery charge is very impressive either but then I have been using the EN-EL4 series batteries for many years and that colours my view. I want the Z series to be a success and I think it has all the features and qualities required. As Michael Topham of Amateur Photographer points out "will they be able to build them fast enough"?
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| Posted by Iain: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 11:22 | 7th Post |
But they have done it again, one card slot. 
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| Posted by jk: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 11:45 | 8th Post |
Iain wrote:But they have done it again, one card slot. Why do you need two slots? But in Z7/6 the slot is XQD and the latest specification allows for 4TB XQD cards I believe. I have 64GB XQD and SD cards in my D850, that is > 1400 shots of RAW. I really dont see the need for dual slots. I think it is driven by a paranoia in wedding photographers about failure of cards. I have had one SD, CF or XQD fail and it was after a format not in live use. All electronics can fail.
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| Posted by GeoffR: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 12:16 | 9th Post |
jk wrote: Iain wrote:There really is no difference between having one card slot and only being able to load one roll of film. That said, two slots would be better. So could we take this as an indication that these cameras are not the top of the range professional bodies but equivalents to the D850 and D750? I would like to think that there is a top of the range Pro body awaiting the results of the Z6 and Z7 launch. Possibly a bigger body with integral grip using the EN-EL18c battery, a bigger buffer and even faster frame rate.
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| Posted by Eric: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 13:49 | 10th Post |
jk wrote:This will please Eric. Sadly the wholesale commitment to XQD is the deal breaker for me. Until these cards are sensibly priced and enable the direct transfer of photo files to my iPad Pro, I must stay with SD card cameras.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by jk: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 06:16 | 11th Post |
| There is an adapter that allow XQD to iPad download. I saw the reader yesterday when searching for other information. I am surprised that XQD has been chosen as card as I think it limits market but I am told that XQD will be as ubiquitous as SD! I have searched for a SD card to XQD adpater but apparently it doesnt exist. Well I contacted a large USA company and asked the question. I think it is just a matter of time as it is always possible to build an adapter.
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| Posted by jk: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 06:17 | 12th Post |
| Z7/Z6 brochure is available for download here. https://cdn-4.nikon-cdn.com/e/Q5NM96RZZo-RRZZFeeMiveET0gVQ--AxJI7g-xcLVNVcp7mdwZQz5w==/Misc/Z7_Z6_Brochure.pdf
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| Posted by jk: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 06:22 | 13th Post |
GeoffR wrote:jk wrote:Iain wrote:There really is no difference between having one card slot and only being able to load one roll of film. That said, two slots would be better. I agree that once the technology and concept is proven and refined then a DZ6 might be the logical next step. This would be the first mirrorless camera with D series body but dont know how this is approached from a marketing perspective as it may fragment professional camera sales. If the EN-EL15b can only deliver 330 shots then a DZ series camera with a bigger battery is required for photo journalists as 1000+ shots per charge is more desirable. BTW a battery grip is promised for the Z7/Z6. 
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| Posted by Eric: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 08:51 | 14th Post |
jk wrote:There is an adapter that allow XQD to iPad download. I saw the reader yesterday when searching for other information. I will believe the ubiquitous claim when the prices start to fall. I suppose I could use WiFi to transfer....or go via the desktop? The problem is ...emptying the card in the field..no I would not multi buy at current prices. My WD external hard drive has a simple SD slot. If I want to continue to use it I will need to take more paraphernalia with me. Need to consider changing workflow ...as well as the cameras performance/feel.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Graham Whistler: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 09:39 | 15th Post |
| Only 9FPS? I thought the big plus with mirrorless cameras is very fast FPS the D850 does 9FPS. I do think it is good that the new mount with suitsable adaptor will let us use present range of AF-S lenses. I will have a look at one out of interest. No change for me at moment am very happy with what I have.
____________________ Graham Whistler |
| Posted by jk: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 14:02 | 16th Post |
| I think we need to be cautious with adoption of the z series as it is the 'second' generation of Nikon mirrorless but in truth is the first really serious mirrorless camera by them. The speed and accuracy of AF in stills and video mode will determine success/failure.
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| Posted by Eric: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 14:39 | 17th Post |
jk wrote:I think we need to be cautious with adoption of the z series as it is the 'second' generation of Nikon mirrorless but in truth is the first really serious mirrorless camera by them. Cautious? You Jonathan? I am surprised you haven't got both on order already?  The 9fps does sound disappointing compared to the Sony Alphas 20fps. 
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Robert: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 15:04 | 18th Post |
| Think you will find the fps is well more than 9fps , depends on the bit depth, it is reported the the battery use is far higher than 300 exposures per charge, like iro 1000 albeit with JPEGs. Both bodies are essentially identical except for the sensor resolution, making the Z6 very good value. Reports are of a completely flicker free viewfinder except perhaps in some artificial lighting. The 5 axis sensor is the image stabilisation medium. I understand that changes to 3 axis for non z mount lenses but it still means any Nikkor including the oldest pre AI lenses will have the advantage of image stabilisation. There is provision to input the lens data for lenses without a CPU chip. The Wi-Fi can connect directly to a computer or perhaps iPad and also to a router to transmit image files across a network or the internet. Mind you, we have heard this before... Snapbridge anybody?
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by GeoffR: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 16:20 | 19th Post |
Robert wrote: The 5 axis sensor is the image stabilisation medium. I understand that changes to 3 axis for non z mount lenses but it still means any Nikkor including the oldest pre AI lenses will have the advantage of image stabilisation. There is provision to input the lens data for lenses without a CPU chip.I think you will find that it is 5 axis for VR lenses and 3 axis for non-VR, There are currently no VR Z mount lenses.
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| Posted by Iain: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 16:23 | 20th Post |
jk wrote:Iain wrote: If you are doing paid work the two card slots are a insurance policy. All the pros I know all work with cameras with two card slots.
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| Posted by jk: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 17:14 | 21st Post |
| All my latest cameras have two slots but I would never use them as a paired set with backup from one to another. That is my personal preference. That said I have used the second slot as a me hanism to backup an SD card to the other at the end of a holiday so everything was on one card for easy downloading! I guess my risk management is different to some. I have >£70K of camera kit none of it is insured. Why... CBA says it is not a valid proposition. Last camera damage claim was in approx 1980 and value was £680. So 38 years at annual premium of £1K= £38K. So every alternate year I need to lose my D3S or D850 or Z7 to make having insurance worthwhile. I self insure so if I lose or damage it I pay for it! Pays to be careful. I guess if you are doing weddings or paid commissioned work you may want to either have liability insure or a good contract of hire that excludes loss of pictures due to accident, etc.
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| Posted by Robert: Sat Aug 25th, 2018 03:11 | 22nd Post |
Iain wrote:If you are doing paid work the two card slots are a insurance policy. All the pros I know all work with cameras with two card slots. Not convinced. As I see it all the pro's you work with have proper cameras which happen to have two slots, dating from when cards were smaller and less reliable than they are today. I bet most pros also cary multiple cameras, much better insurance. Have seen this point made many times and there are many sides to the discussion. It won't stop a card going bad and can cause the second card to write the same corrupted file if used as backup, anything can fail. How often do users fail to turn off the camera before changing lenses or swapping cards? Can and does happen. How many cars have spare wheels today? Of those which do, the spare is generally unused... I can remember when having a puncture was a regular occurrence, back in the 50's and 60's, I haven't had to change a wheel at the roadside since about 15 years ago and I remember the spare was flat! I scoured around and borrowed one from a stranger! I use my D3 second slot as overflow, I have spent five nights on Isle of Skye, taken ~2,000 NEF exposures, still didn't fill the first 32Gb card. Just an excuse to save 3 or 4 grand and avoid learning a new camera; abandoning the beloved, trusted DSLR will be a huge wrench for the pro brigade as it won't for now, completely replace the DSLR. My guess is the Z range will be largely taken up by serious enthusiasts and those willing to put their elbow in the potentially hot water. In time I think the Z range will prevail, it's called evolution.  More of a concern is that this is the first iteration of a very new camera, second iteration may well trump it. Buying now is akin to becoming a Nikon guinea pig. There will very likely be some issues with the new design which hopefully will be refined out over time... Nikon pre production testing is done by trusted, highly experienced photographers, who care, the production cameras will be used by people with a wider range of abilities...
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Sat Aug 25th, 2018 05:38 | 23rd Post |
| Interesting. https://www.dpreview.com/news/1654168429/nikon-announces-64gb-and-120gb-xqd-memory-cards
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| Posted by Graham Whistler: Sat Aug 25th, 2018 05:41 | 24th Post |
| Robert I agree with a lot of what you have just said. I see no point in keep changing cameras. From time to time I go back and reprint some of my old D1X and D2X pixs and quality is still very good and to be honest hard to see on an A3 print that todays D500s and D850s produce much better images? By the way did you get the the Ravenglass DVD you helped us make in July? Are you pleased with the result?
____________________ Graham Whistler |
| Posted by jk: Sat Aug 25th, 2018 05:43 | 25th Post |
| Agree with Robert. The professional PJs working with digital will stick with D4 or D5 and go for the next iteration so a DZ6 which will have all the wrinkles ironed out. I hate to say it as I have invested in SD cards in a big way but XQD is the way to go as it is faster and more robust.
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| Posted by GeoffR: Sat Aug 25th, 2018 06:01 | 26th Post |
Iain wrote: jk wrote:A mere 20 years ago they wouldn't have had that option and undeveloped film is a lot less robust than is a memory card. Not that it isn't advantageous to have two card slots but for more than 100 years there was no equivalent option. In any case, I see these two as the equivalent of the D750 and D850 rather than equating to a mirrorless D5.
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| Posted by Robert: Sat Aug 25th, 2018 10:38 | 27th Post |
Graham Whistler wrote:By the way did you get the the Ravenglass DVD you helped us make in July? Are you pleased with the result? Hi Graham, Yes, very sorry, have kept meaning to thank you, it arrived safely, very impressive! I have way too many distractions at the moment! Christopher was supposed to be going to Turkey for two weeks but instead is staying on with me for the entire summer holiday, just to keep on my toes...
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by TomOC: Sat Aug 25th, 2018 15:12 | 28th Post |
| wow...xqd...fail why in the world do they see the need for this? I still go by the rule of no need for larger cards than the life of your battery. I said many times that I would give my left arm for a large sensor camera that would fit in my pocket. When the Leica x1 was introduced, I fell in love with it's ability but not it's features...when the first fuji x100 came to be I really fell in love! The "rangefinder" form factor of Fuji and some Sony mirrorless are just great. The fuji and Sony "mini SLR" bodies are lost on me. If I want a DSLR, I would use my Nikons...if I want to use a lens that is long enough to require a tripod, I'll use my Nikons (what difference does it make that they are heavy since I'm already lugging the tripod). Then there is the XQD...really? SD cards are the standard...why would Nikon (again) buck this trend...is this another Sony Memory stick...yes! I already have too many adapters and cables...NO MORE.... I always thought I would be a single brand guy..Fuji turned me into a dual brand guy... I'll stay that way  tom
____________________ Tom O'Connell -Lots of people talk to animals.... Not very many listen, though.... That's the problem. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh |
| Posted by jk: Sat Aug 25th, 2018 18:29 | 29th Post |
| Tom, I am with you on the need for XQD. It is the latest memory standard so Nikon feel the need to move that way as it is already in the D5, D850, D500. Personally I think it does give technical write speed headroom but this really is only valuable to video buffs. If you want video get a video camera is my mantra! So yes please can someone develop an XQD adapter that takes SD cards. I will take a couple or maybe five.
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| Posted by jk: Sun Aug 26th, 2018 07:38 | 30th Post |
| I have been looking at the Z mirrorless lens roadmap. Attachment: Nikon-Z-mirrorless-roadmap.jpg (Downloaded 22 times)
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| Posted by jk: Sun Aug 26th, 2018 07:43 | 31st Post |
| The more I look at it then the more I wonder if I am doing the right thing buying a Z lens immediately. The 24-70 f4 will give me a native Z lens to use but my preference will be for the lenses that come in 2019. I think maybe I need to use the camera and get used to it. Then in early 2019 getting rid of all my old Nikon glass except a few key lenses and invest instead in the new Z lenses. 14-30mm f4 85mm f1.4 24-70mm f2.8 - NOTE f2.8 not f4. 70-200mm f2.8 Obviously this strategy would force me to have Z lenses only and would stop any use of the D850 which I really like so I would either need to duplicate lenses in the F range.Or only buy say the 14-30mm f4 and continue to use my F range glass with the Z7 camera.
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| Posted by Robert: Sun Aug 26th, 2018 08:25 | 32nd Post |
| The longer lenses won't be available in Z mount for some years, The 500PF has been announced and seems to be a good spec. I think Nikon are concentrating on the core, short to medium lenses for good reason... The sensor will be optimised for the new and apparently very complex designs of the Z mount lenses, to get the full 5 stop benefit from the sensor IS the Z mount lenses are required. Until Birna and others get their hands on production models we won't know how well the sensor optimisation for the Z mount works with F mount lenses. It could be that some work well, others less well. Many are relishing the prospect of using old, classic lenses with the IS but what they might gain with the IS and zoom viewfinder they may well loose in outright lack of IQ due to the optimisation of the sensor. I wouldn't make too many plans about the choice of F or Z lenses for now, although It would probably make sense to get at least one Z mount prime to see how it compares in real world use with the F on the D850, effectively the same sensor.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Sun Aug 26th, 2018 12:19 | 33rd Post |
| These two are really unbiased (well as unbaised as any average non-fanboy reviewer). https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=438&v=iUii9dTwPkw Not a great review but they were using a pre-production model.
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| Posted by jk: Sun Aug 26th, 2018 18:26 | 34th Post |
| A slightly different perspective (more positive) on the cameras. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWGIm0RdswA
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| Posted by Robert: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 02:53 | 35th Post |
| And another, somewhat more objective... and longer, 23mins? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNHQUGgZAKE Clears up the uncertainty about fps, stating 12fps for the Z6, arguably making the Z6 even better value for anybody not needing the 45 mega pixel files or the hefty price tag. The sensor based IS sounds good for legacy lenses, adding roll the the normal two axis VR. Still think this will vary from lens to lens, as I said before, awaiting real world testing on actual classic lenses to draw solid conclusions as to the viability of mixing the latest, greatest camera with the great old lenses. Interesting remark that the VR works better if your hands are (like mine) somewhat shaky...
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Eric: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 04:41 | 36th Post |
Robert wrote:And another, somewhat more objective... and longer, 23mins? Did you also notice the lens used on the video of the ducks? Seems like he also has the new 500mm on test. Attachment: 6F33678A-9285-4044-9EAF-4183E3E30F62.jpeg (Downloaded 16 times)
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by jk: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 05:27 | 37th Post |
| Currently in debate mde with myself about the value of the Z7 to me. The D850 is excellent and works great but is heavy and big. The Fuji XT2 works well but the sensor is smaller and lower MP. There is no doubt in my mind that the D850 gives more than any other camera that is not MF. So will Z7 give the same when it is loaded with firmware that is not beta or pre-production? Like I have always said these are tools not toys! That doesnt mean I dont like new toys.
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| Posted by GeoffR: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 06:33 | 38th Post |
jk wrote: So will Z7 give the same when it is loaded with firmware that is not beta or pre-production?This link, Nikon Rumours, suggests that Nikon see the Z6 and Z7 as equivalent to the D750 and D850. It would certainly not be a good idea for Nikon to make the Z series inferior to the SLRs so I think it safe to assume that the intention is that the Z7 will at least equal the D850 in performance terms.
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| Posted by jk: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 06:41 | 39th Post |
GeoffR wrote:jk wrote:So will Z7 give the same when it is loaded with firmware that is not beta or pre-production?This link, Nikon Rumours, suggests that Nikon see the Z6 and Z7 as equivalent to the D750 and D850. It would certainly not be a good idea for Nikon to make the Z series inferior to the SLRs so I think it safe to assume that the intention is that the Z7 will at least equal the D850 in performance terms. I certainly hope you are right Geoff as I dont want to be lumbered with a Z7 that is a £4k piece of jewellery. I need a camera that is as good as the D600 at least but preferably as good D800/D850 in terms of AF speed and quality. Some of the reports are people who havent 'used' mirrorless in serious work but I would say that my Fuji XT2 is as good as my D600. If the Z7 is equal to or better than my XT2 then I am happy but if it is like my XT1 then it will go back as not fit for purpose!
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| Posted by GeoffR: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 07:00 | 40th Post |
jk wrote: GeoffR wrote:I'm rather more interested in the Pro body but, as I have said previously, the EVF will need to be indistinguishable from an optical finder before I part with any money.
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| Posted by Robert: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 10:22 | 41st Post |
| I would definitely be waiting until the production versions are out in the wild and real experts like Birna can get to grips with the actual cameras in a real world environment. These self appointed 'experts' have very limited credentials and little real background experience, they just want to ponce about on Utube and they think every body considers them to be god because they have held a pre production Z body. Despite the announcement, we can't really assess the new cameras properly yet. OK, we have the specs. but Nikon have a poor track record with stuff like software and Wi-Fi etc. I understand colour control points have been re-introduced in Nikon Capture software. so maybe they are learning...
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by GeoffR: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 12:00 | 42nd Post |
Robert wrote: I understand colour control points have been re-introduced in Nikon Capture software. so maybe they are learning...That would be good
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| Posted by Eric: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 13:26 | 43rd Post |
Robert wrote:I would definitely be waiting until the production versions are out in the wild and real experts like Birna can get to grips with the actual cameras in a real world environment. I think that's a little unfair, Robert. Whilst there are some people just in it for self aggrandisement there must be some who give the product a good honest shakedown? And anyway, I don't need an expert detail analysis...I just need it to meet my requirements, which are fairly simplistic.... 1) Does this body feel right in the hand? 2) Does the viewfinder clear fast enough to maintain continuous eye contact with the subject, without NEEDING extra batteries and AFC? 3) Does the sensor deliver sharp images with low noise even at (sensible) high ISO level comparable with equivalent DSLRs? 4) Is the opening lens range good enough quality to avoid having to use existing lenses.... which would counter the lower weight advantage. I have conceded that the battery on a mirrorless will never approach a DSLR image capacity. The ability to use my collection of existing Nikon batteries and a single charger would have to suffice.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by jk: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 14:00 | 44th Post |
| I dont care how many people say it is no good. If if works for me then it works. It is a tool as I keep saying. I agree with all that Eric says about criteria for purchase. Also same criteria for the battery. If the D3 that I sold to Robert was 24MP then I would still have it. The D3X is 24MP, the D4 is 16MP, D5 is 21MP. The D6 will be ???MP but IMHO needs to be 36MP. The D3X is like hens teeth.
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| Posted by Robert: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 15:07 | 45th Post |
Eric wrote:I think that's a little unfair, Robert. You are probably right Eric but I had just sat through four YouTube videos and that WAS the overbearing impression I was left with. I was just expressing my frustration at what I saw as unfair, dismissive reviews. These two cameras are aimed at enthusiasts and serious users, not pro's, their turn will probably come with the second iteration, which I understand is already in the pipeline and is said to include the large D5 type battery and dual card slots. Surely it makes sense for Nikon to release a product like this to a critical and competent user base to iron out wrinkles and snags before finalising a higher end product aimed at the true professional user. Interestingly the 'roadmap' doesn't include future bodies, I suspect Nikon have released these to test the water to see what happens, future development may be steered to some degree by feedback from X6 and Z7 owners. I hear the Olympics in two years time are at Tokyo? Maybe another long PF in Zmount as well?
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Robert: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 15:27 | 46th Post |
Eric wrote:
From what I can gather, the Z mount lenses are tending to be heavier than equivalent F mount lenses. They are larger, with more elements but Nikon's selling point is they claim to have maximum sharpness at widest aperture. However they may be more robust due to the VR (IS?) being in the body rather than the lens, in theory they should be a little saving because you are only buying one image stabilising unit rather than one for each lens.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Eric: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 15:55 | 47th Post |
Robert wrote:Eric wrote: 4 videos? No wonder you are jaundiced. The one you posted, I found quite good. It told me a number of things I needed to know. I am not sure you are right (sorry) about the positioning of this body. The bodies are weatherproof like the D850...not many enthusiasts choose to go out in the pouring rain....except in Cumbria. I don't believe the camera industry is flirting with light weight mirrorless systems purely for the benefit of amateurs. Just like the transition from film to digital that took several years to get pros fully on board, there is another evolution in progress that will mean pros eventually accepting mirrorless as the norm. How long that will take remains to be seen but I suspect 2 weather proof, full frame bodies with an adapter to existing lenses is a dam good 'wedge in the door'. I seriously think we are at the D1X stage ...again
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Robert: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 16:17 | 48th Post |
Eric wrote:I seriously think we are at the D1X stage ...again If you don't go out in the rain in Cumbria you just don't go out! I have scarcely been out of the house since we returned from Scotland In some ways I agree, D1X days again but we are much further down the path than we were back then... Just about every camera now made surpasses film for IQ, not to mention all the other advantages digital brings. How much better does IQ need to get?
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 17:03 | 49th Post |
| Compared to my D1 the D1X was a heap better. If the Z7 has as good AF performance as the D1X or D2X then I am happy, if it is as good as D3 then extactic! The D1X battery was a dog hence my manufacture of the Lion battery way back when. I was unhappy with the Fuji battery so I looked for external battery pack that was similar to the one I made for the D1 and D2 series. Low and behold that also works for my Fuji XT2 and XT1.
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| Posted by Eric: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 17:44 | 50th Post |
Robert wrote:Eric wrote: I don't think it's purely about IQ any more. That's why I said the mirrorless should be 'comparable' to current DSLRs....it doesn't need to be better. The DSLR v 35mm film battle was won with the D3. Since then Nikon has been attempting to overturn medium format. First the D3X then the 800 cameras. The main advantage of these high pixel sensors for me, is the possibility of sectional enlargement. And that raises another question.... At what point will the croppability of an FX sensor be so good that a DX censor is obsolete....just like film became? Mirrorless is really all about reducing the manufacturer's costs. And as such it WILL be the future. The only issue is milking the market, sorry, managing the transition. It was 8years from D1 to D3. Nikon started their mirrorless programme in 2011. I think we are about due another milestone .....mirrorless taking over from DSLR. I am willing to speculate it will be the end of DX and DSLR bodies in the next 5 years. As soon as the Zbodies outperform the D* bodies .....pros will adopt mirrorless.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by jk: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 17:51 | 51st Post |
GeoffR wrote:I'm rather more interested in the Pro body but, as I have said previously, the EVF will need to be indistinguishable from an optical finder before I part with any money.Well my Fuji XT2 has 2.36MP EVF and I am happy. The Z7 has 3.6MP so it should be better, but it does depend on the revresh rate as well.
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| Posted by GeoffR: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 02:07 | 52nd Post |
Robert wrote: However they may be more robust due to the VR (IS?) being in the body rather than the lens, in theory they should be a little saving because you are only buying one image stabilising unit rather than one for each lens.Robert, I have said this before but it bears repeating. There is no evidence that Nikon has, or will be, dropping in-lens VR. With the possible exception of the 24-70 f4 Nikon don't make a VR version of any of the lenses currently announced. There isn't a 24-70 f4 in F mount but there is a 24-70 f2.8 VR. There is a 24-70 f2.8 on the road map, will it have VR? I expect so. I fully expect the 70-200 f2.8 to be a VR lens and I also expect further VR lenses to be introduced later. Correcting Pitch and Yaw vibration is easier to accomplish with in-lens systems. If I were designing a new camera system and had the option of five axis stabilisation I wouldn't cripple it by removing the Pitch and Yaw elements from future lenses.
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| Posted by Robert: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 04:44 | 53rd Post |
| https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/mirrorless-cameras/z-6.html#tab-ProductDetail-ProductTabs-Overview Attachment: Screen Shot 2018-08-28 at 09.42.55.jpg (Downloaded 14 times)
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Robert: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 04:47 | 54th Post |
| 12 fps Attachment: Screen Shot 2018-08-28 at 09.46.24.jpg (Downloaded 12 times)
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 05:05 | 55th Post |
| 12fps in low light? No.... I find this is something for those who like machine guns rather than rifles! I dont need 50 bullets to kill someone/thing as a person who was trained as a sniper by British Army. I find one bullet is enough or two if really necessary! Similarly in cameras I tend to use CL only where I want a set of images fast action or HDR. CH is wasted on me. Single frame capture is my preference. I understand CL use in dance and sports and possibly some wildlife images.
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| Posted by Robert: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 05:43 | 56th Post |
jk wrote:
Simply posted the info to correct any misunderstandings. I do use high for two reasons, exposure bracketing and focus bracketing with my 300 f2.8 MF which I lock onto a pre determined point on a race track then rattle off three or four exposures which allows me to choose the optimal shot for that particular picture. My reactions and eyes are not in the same class as an army trained sharp shooter!!! 
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 08:23 | 57th Post |
Robert wrote:
Neither are mine these days but my hands are still pretty steady. Nothing lasts forever though.
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| Posted by jk: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 08:41 | 58th Post |
| I am gradually drifting to a decision that I will get my Z7 with 24-70 f4 and the Z adapter. If it performs well then I will keep but I will be thinning out my Nikon camera and lens inventory and also reduce my Fuji setup by getting rid of the XT1. I am still fence sitting about getting a second XT2 as the Z7 has removed need and a purchase of a Z6 would certainly negate the need for a second XT2. It really is now all about how the Z7 AF performs and how I get on with it!
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| Posted by Eric: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 15:56 | 59th Post |
| Well, Amazon are doing their best to encourage me to get a Z model. I ordered a Sony XQD card to try on the D500 while on holiday ......they sent me two! Order and invoice clearly say one. Just waiting to see what credit card says before contacting them. Now wondering if I should order a Z7 from them ...and see if they send me two of those as well.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Robert: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 17:00 | 60th Post |
| Had you not considered updating the firmware on the D500 to accept the CF express cards... Not 100% up on the tech, just posting on the hoof from memory, I posted a link about it a while back... http://nikondslr.uk/view_topic.php?id=1516&forum_id=5 The Z's are said to be upgradable to take these alternative cards too.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 18:43 | 61st Post |
| I want an SD card to XQD slot adapter. Still not found one. It must be possible to make. Need to get pinouts for XQD and also SD cards.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Robert: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 03:38 | 62nd Post |
| Post moved to dedicated thread. http://nikondslr.uk/view_post.php?post_id=17639
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by GeoffR: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 04:09 | 63rd Post |
Robert wrote: Had you not considered updating the firmware on the D500 to accept the CF express cards... Not 100% up on the tech, just posting on the hoof from memory, I posted a link about it a while back...As CFExpress cards aren't available yet I don't think Nikon have released any firmware updates for them.
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| Posted by Robert: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 04:57 | 64th Post |
| Good point! Later this year? https://www.dpreview.com/news/9327963087/prograde-demonstrates-first-ever-1tb-cfexpress-card-with-1-400mb-s-read-speed The Brochure for the Z6 states that a firmware upgrade will be available to enable compatibility with the CFexpress cards and elsewhere read that will extend to the other XQD bodies. Just got a bit ahead of reality there!
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by GeoffR: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 05:48 | 65th Post |
Robert wrote: Good point!I really hope that is correct because I need more cards, 16GB x2 was fine in the D3 but I effectively have only one slot in the D4. I either buy more 32GB CF cards or wait and buy CFExpress cards once the firmware update is available.
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| Posted by GeoffR: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 05:52 | 66th Post |
| I found this interesting too Nikon XQD cards
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| Posted by jk: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 05:57 | 67th Post |
| Yes I saw that but I suspect that Sony, Lexar, Delkin XQDs will be more competitively priced. However Nikon may be doing this as a way of using their cards in bundles and rebates.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Robert: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 06:48 | 68th Post |
| Yes, saw that Geoff, We are currently in an avalanche of information and sifting through it all, sorting the wheat from the chaff is a full time job! I am watching several forums and researching myself too. Exciting times. This is a bit of a long read but for those with the time it's very interesting. https://cdn-4.nikon-cdn.com/e/Q5NM96RZZo-RRZZFeeMiveET0gVQ--AxJI7g-xcLVNVcp7mdwZQz5w==/Misc/Z_Engineer_Interview_Brochure.pdf
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 11:45 | 69th Post |
| In my D850 I have a 128GB QXD and a 64GB SD. This provides me with 1400 images. Much too many. I am thinking that I will move the 128GB QXD to the Z7 (900 images) and get a 64GB XQD to put into the D850. So both cameras will have 900 image potential. More than enough, even for a busy day.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Robert: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 12:32 | 70th Post |
jk wrote:In my D850 I have a 128GB QXD and a 64GB SD. This provides me with 1400 images. Much too many. I tend to be a bit heavy on bracketing since Lightroom made it so easy to process HDR images. Even so, over five nights in Scotland I 'only' took about 2000 images which just about filled a 32Gb card in the D3. From those 2000 exposures I have selected and processed about 55 which I would feel comfortable posting anywhere, or putting in an album. A couple of hundred were time-lapse which I had hoped might have produced some star trails, but didn't due to cloud cover. With the advances in exposure and focus since the D3 to the D850 and Z6-7 I would anticipate a better keeper ratio. Also I would hope and expect a slower and more methodical approach which should improve the composition and focus of the images. I haven't seen any mention of it but I understand the most electronic viewfinders have a magnify function which allows you to zoom to a pre determined magnification. That would be invaluable to me, especially if the magnified area can be moved with the joystick. Can anyone confirm the EVF zoom on the Z cameras?
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 15:12 | 71st Post |
| I dont think there is EVF zoom but TFT replay zoom as is currently present in D850 and other digital cameras. Fuji cameras offer aa eVF zoom mode for focussing pnly. I dont know if this happens in the Z series cameras.
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| Posted by GeoffR: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 15:52 | 72nd Post |
jk wrote: I dont think there is EVF zoom but TFT replay zoom as is currently present in D850 and other digital cameras.I saw a graphic, can't remember where, that suggests that it is available on the Z series.
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| Posted by Robert: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 16:28 | 73rd Post |
| Thanks for the fb, strange, because for me that would be the first thing I would expect from an EVF??? The fact it isn't mentioned almost anywhere (except very briefly in one of the numerous Z7 you tube videos I have endured in the name of research and those *** didn't know, they were speculating...) makes me wonder. It's such an obvious feature which I would use on almost every image. Just like I did with my Bronica S2a. If you can't have a waist level finder with loupe, that would be next best thing. I have tried using live view and by comparison it's rubbish, not only that, the image moves the right way... LOL
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Eric: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 17:40 | 74th Post |
| Do you ever get the feeling we are wishing our lives away, waiting anxiously for the next development fix? These manufacturers certainly know how to feed our habit.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Robert: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 17:43 | 75th Post |
If you think Nikon are bad for that, buy into Apple products!!! ... Oh but you have! I think we all have a bad dose of NAS.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by GeoffR: Thu Aug 30th, 2018 05:23 | 76th Post |
Robert wrote: Speak for yourself, this Mac is 7 years old, my most recently acquired camera likewise as is my car. I am not an early adopter. Whilst I may be interested in the Z series cameras I have absolutely no intention of buying one. Why not? Physically too small, the "grip" is, apparently only a battery pack so no second set of controls or shutter button and I'll only switch to an EVF when they are indistinguishable from an optical viewfinder. Now if the Z series should depress the prices of used D4 and D5 bodies...
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| Posted by Robert: Thu Aug 30th, 2018 05:58 | 77th Post |
GeoffR wrote:Speak for yourself, this Mac is 7 years old I am not an early adopter I bought my first Mac, an SE in ~1988, I still have it here in my bedroom, upgraded to SE30, total cost inc. the upgrade, £3,500 + £1,000 for scanner and £2,500 for the LaserPrinter, all early adopter. Since then I have had innumerable Macs, new and used, large and small, including the 'luggable' Mac portable. I currently have two Mac minis, a Mac Book pro, an old iMac G5 which gives me access to OS 9.1; and my Pride and Joy, bought two years ago, an early 2009 Mac Pro 4.1 which I have hacked the firmware to 5.1 and is running High Sierra via PCIe SSDs. I have several other Macs 'in the loft'! About eight years ago I had a clear out and completely filled my Volvo estate with unwanted Mac gear to take to the recycling depot. Not to mention a succession of iPhones and an iPad for which I have yet to find a real use. Although I have had it on surveillance duty using an app called 'cambush' which turns it into a security camera, activated by movement in the field of view. We have some unwanted rodents in the back yard and I am trying to monitor their activities, so perhaps the iPad isn't entirely useless. So that's my speak on AAS!
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Thu Aug 30th, 2018 07:07 | 78th Post |
| OK I know reviewers vary but..... Nikon Z6 vs Sony a7 III, which is the better buy? Hint: it's too close to call So they say the Z6 = A7iii. Too close to call. Which is better: Nikon Z7 vs Sony a7R III So the Z7 is the same as the Z6 just more MP? Yes? And the A7iiiR is the same as the Z7 but has just less 3MP than the Z7? (so it is the same). Yes? Maybe not? Then re-read the first article..... So the Z6 is as good as the Sony A7iii. So the Z7 is as good as the Sony A7iiiR? Maybe? Yes? See their conclusions. Or is the A7iiiR so much better than the A7iii? I cant judge as I cant do a hands on comparison. So I ask myself "What are all the reviewers fussing about"? Did they want a Z7 camera that beat every camera on the market out of sight? Get real! Tools for jobs. Choose your tool correctly. RANT Time. I really think that ~80% of the human race (or is it just reviewers?) is stupid and lack any facility for critical thinking. A plague upon their camp!
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by GeoffR: Thu Aug 30th, 2018 07:59 | 79th Post |
Robert wrote: GeoffR wrote:And I thought 5 MacBooks an iMac, an iPad Mini and a selection of iPhones not to mention the odd iPod was excessive! Nothing newer than 2014 in the Mac department though, only the iPad Mini is the current model.
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| Posted by GeoffR: Thu Aug 30th, 2018 08:10 | 80th Post |
jk wrote: OK I know reviewers vary but.....Essentially, yes I think that is exactly what they wanted, and I dare say Nikon could have done it but they need user feedback and they need to get the cameras in the right hands. What they have is attractive to Nikon users but needs refining. I wouldn't want a camera without a set or controls and a shutter release for portrait shooting and I doubt I am alone. I suspect there are many software tweaks required to make the camera as adaptable as users would like but all these things can come later once a few thousand of them are in daily use. Giving away an XQD card with the camera is a nice touch but I wouldn't be surprised if there were pressure to offer an SD card version too. We'll have to wait and see about that. Demand for two card slots will be there too but we already know that means a bigger body.
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| Posted by Robert: Thu Aug 30th, 2018 08:13 | 81st Post |
jk wrote:OK I know reviewers vary but..... Perhaps a little unfair... I not sure about the percentage, high or low! Meant to add... There is only ONE reviewer who counts, you! I honestly believe you will be pleased but this is only the start, if the Z's match the opposition (who are on umpteenth iteration) at the first attempt then we can only look forward to some very good cameras.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Thu Aug 30th, 2018 09:29 | 82nd Post |
GeoffR wrote:jk wrote:OK I know reviewers vary but.....Essentially, yes I think that is exactly what they wanted, and I dare say Nikon could have done it but they need user feedback and they need to get the cameras in the right hands. What they have is attractive to Nikon users but needs refining. Yes but how unrealistic from the reviewers. We all know that there are technology limitations and advantages with PhaseDetect/ContrastDetect AF units. The speed of AF acquisition in different and accuracy also. This article is a good read. https://www.creative-photographer.com/phase-detection-contrast-detection-autofocus/
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Eric: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 11:04 | 83rd Post |
| Well I am still unconvinced on the value for money and functionality of these cameras based on the majority of reviews I've seen so far. They range from polite critique to downright offensive, with the general tenor being..... there is nothing on these cameras that wows, despite all the Nikon 'mirrorless reinvented' hype. Some have suggested it's little more than a D5000 series camera withthe mirror taken out. And given the price tag that would be extortionate. Depressingly so, I have even heard it doesn't focus in AF-C mode very reliably making tracing less than ideal. And one person dared to say there was viewfinder blackout. So I am not holding my breath on this one.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by jk: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 11:49 | 84th Post |
| I think that the high price is a reflection of Nikon putting a 45MP sensor in the camera. If it had been me I would have launched the 24MP Z6 first, ironed out the issues and complaints and released the killer Z7 with everything fixed and at same time launch a DZ7 (professional body like the D6). In a DZ7 I would expect mirrorless camera with twin cards, two batteries, Z flange, even faster AF. Yes I do feel uncertain about going to the Z7 but it may be a very good option if it performs correctly. It wont be a D850 but more a XT2 on steroids. That is my expectation. I may be disappointed.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by GeoffR: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 12:14 | 85th Post |
| As I said back in post 76 I have made my decision. We have no way of knowing whether the review samples had the final firmware or whether there will be changes as a result of the reviews. We won't find out until the production versions hit the dealers in September and October, I don't think this is a camera for the early adopter.
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| Posted by Robert: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 12:28 | 86th Post |
GeoffR wrote:I don't think this is a camera for the early adopter. Don't understand? Anyone who buys this camera WILL be an early adopter, unless they are buying it from old stock, 12 months hence...
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Eric: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 13:02 | 87th Post |
jk wrote:I think that the high price is a reflection of Nikon putting a 45MP sensor in the camera. Although ultimately a professional mirrorless will come along and be adopted by same, I feel it is still some time off. Although many professionals DO USE mirrorless cameras, it will need something a bit more robust than the current body and lenses to woo the D5/6 brigade. That said, I no longer take photographs for a living, so wouldn't need it D5 bombproof. For me it's the value for money part that irks me. The 45mp D850 is priced near enough to the Z7 to question the advantage of mirrorless
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by GeoffR: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 13:42 | 88th Post |
Robert wrote: GeoffR wrote:That should read "this is not a camera with which to be an early adopter" buying one of the first batch is a gamble, later buyers will benefit from firmware updates out of the box. I would let someone else be the guinea pig.
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| Posted by Robert: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 14:37 | 89th Post |
GeoffR wrote:Robert wrote:GeoffR wrote: Ah! I think I said that in my first post (or second!). Not just the firmware, the hardware too. Totally new mount is bound to have some room for refinement. It's easy to get carried away by the hype. That said, I still think these cameras will be outstanding. Nikon have made an massive investment, they are committed to making the highest quality product they can produce. Even if it's 'no better' than the D850, that's still a great achievement. The opposition ie. Sony and Fuji, are several iterations down the track. The paying customer has funded the development, as is to be expected. The AF will take some sorting because it's a physics thing, trying to do the impossible. Even with todays technology the impossible takes a little longer! LOL
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by GeoffR: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 16:03 | 90th Post |
Robert wrote: GeoffR wrote:Lets ignore Fuji, their sensor is smaller and thus not a direct competitor. What Nikon have done is to produce a camera very close in all respects to the equivalent Sony.(According to the reviews) That it took Sony three goes to get there and Nikon are on their first attempt suggests that the wait was worthwhile. That does mean that the next iteration from Nikon needs to surpass the next Sony and that isn't going to be easy. However, they have to get the firmware of this one right first.
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| Posted by Robert: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 17:08 | 91st Post |
| Well I have had little interest in mirrorless, my interest now is academic rather than there being any prospect of my obtaining one. I don't see Fuji being irrelevant... Both JK and Eric abandoned Nikon DSLRs in favour of Fuji? Sensor size is irrelevant, the final image is the only thing which matters. No matter what camera it comes from. I hope many people buy into mirrorless so the price of recent DSLRs comes down and allows me to inch further along the path to a really good recent camera. My D3 is wonderful most of the time but has some limitations. The resolution is wanting for stars, the banding on repeated 30 second exposures is troublesome and the dynamic range is limited compared with say the D810. A minor irritation to major obstacle, depending on the day... The D3 won't fit on my PB4 bellows without a PK extension tube. Which prevents me from using it for digitising my old slides and negatives. A D810 would fit perfectly. So, please Nikon, sell lots of the new Z cameras to depress the D810 prices even further than the D850 has. 
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by Eric: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 17:55 | 92nd Post |
| Fuji lenses are very good and their years of experience with film means they know a thing or two about colour balance. So the X cameras produce sharp punchy images despite the smaller sensor. I got rid of my Nikon equipment partly because it was the remnant of my professional years and partly to get rid of the distraction. It was too easy to pick up the Nikon gear I'd used every day for xxyears rather than persevere with the new Fuji system. I got rid of the Fuji system not because of image quality but because of limitations in functionality. I also came to the realisation that I don't need a mirrorless for all situations. It's only two benefits are less weight and exposure preview. So until a mirrorless can deliver on the functionality stakes across the board it will never be a camera for all occasions like a DSLR can
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by GeoffR: Sat Sep 1st, 2018 05:44 | 93rd Post |
| I ignored Fuji in the same way that someone planning to buy a Renault will ignore Ferrari. Both will get you from A to B but the most definitely aren't the same. Someone looking for a full frame camera isn't going to consider Fuji, or Leica for that matter, unless money is no object. Hence we need to consider these new Nikons against what potential buyers may also consider. Sony are the obvious starting point but anyone looking at full frame will also look at a Nikon SLR and/or a Canon SLR. The new Z series are, according to at least one review, on a par with the equivalent Sony products, great that is as it should be. The fact that Sony are on their third generation camera and Nikon on their first is irrelevant. Not that the reviewers will agree. Yes I want them to sell well because I want Nikon to be around for a while longer. I agree with Eric, mirrorless isn't, yet, the maid of all work that the SLR is.
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| Posted by jk: Sat Sep 1st, 2018 06:29 | 94th Post |
| You need to look at the rumoured Canon mirrorless. https://www.nokishita-camera.com/2018/09/eos-r.html Great lens range. Makes Nikon effort look very poor.
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by Robert: Sat Sep 1st, 2018 06:36 | 95th Post |
GeoffR wrote:the maid of all work that the SLR is. But is it? It's heavy and somewhat clumsy. We have got used to it for interchangeable lens cameras and accepted the downsides because there were no real alternatives. The mirror slap is a real pain at times. With digital it should be possible to have a fully usable silent shutter and get rid of the primitive mirror. For wide angle and long lenses single lens reflex viewfinder is pretty well essential, but why should it need a mirror nowadays? The fewer working parts, the less need making, assembling and carrying about. Also less to go wrong, if it isn't there, it can't go wrong, or need cleaning or adjusting. Simple is good. The deep mirror box also impedes lens design, a shorter lens flange depth allows better design for the sensor requirements, film was less fussy. More freedom for the lens designer means better image quality and perhaps reduced costs. Another two pence worth, maybe...
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by GeoffR: Sat Sep 1st, 2018 07:17 | 96th Post |
Robert wrote: GeoffR wrote: Another two pence worth, maybe...Did you deliberately exclude the word "Yet"?There are some areas in which the mirrorless camera isn't the equal of an SLR, will the gap be closed? I wouldn't say never but it may take a while depending on manufacturer priorities. Sony will be wanting to regain/retain their advantage and may well have the technology in development. As to bulk, any full frame camera fitted with a 24-70 f2.8 is going to be relatively bulky.
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| Posted by GeoffR: Sat Sep 1st, 2018 07:26 | 97th Post |
jk wrote: You need to look at the rumoured Canon mirrorless.I am surprised that lens range is such an issue, over 100 current Nikon lenses are available and any current Nikon user is unlikely to ditch their current bodies and embrace the Z series immediately. If, as I suspect, Nikon's aim is to appeal to their current user base first they have made the right moves. If the intent is to attract new users immediately then, yes they have probably made a mistake. If I were Nikon I would want to prevent all those F mount lenses appearing on the second hand market at the same time. Too many used lenses being available could depress sales of new lenses. Also if trade in values are high buying a new camera is easier, financially, we shall see.
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| Posted by Robert: Sat Sep 1st, 2018 07:41 | 98th Post |
GeoffR wrote: Did you deliberately exclude the word "Yet"? Didn't feel it was needed at this level... Don't own and don't intend to own a 24-70 2.8. Not my kind of lens. In the unlikely event I did get a Z I doubt I would get any of the Z lenses. Too clinical. I want to make pictures, not perfect photographs. 105mm f/2.5, 16mm f/2.8 fish and Micro 55mm f/2.8 are my favourites, with a range of others to fill gaps. Zooms are non preferred, but sometimes deployed if the task demands it. The 24-120 f/4.0 is a capable lens but large and heavy. Clambering 2 miles along the Fairy Pools of the river Brittle on Skye was a bit of an effort but the results were worth it. Off out, shoppin to do...
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Sat Sep 1st, 2018 10:11 | 99th Post |
| More Canon info. http://thenewcamera.com/canon-eos-r-fullframe-mirrorless-camera-images-and-full-specification/
____________________ Still learning after all these years! https://nikondslr.uk/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none |
| Posted by amazing50: Sun Sep 2nd, 2018 11:52 | 100th Post |
| JK Said "I want an SD card to XQD slot adapter. Still not found one. It must be possible to make." There should be few problems since both cards can be read by USB. Problems may be with licensing etc. Would like one as a second card for my D850.
____________________ There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept ;~) Mike Grace |
| Posted by GeoffR: Sun Sep 2nd, 2018 17:19 | 101st Post |
amazing50 wrote: JK Said "I want an SD card to XQD slot adapter.You have ignored the electronic interface between the USB port and the card. Neither connects directly to a USB port. A card reader is rather more than a socket for the card and four wires to connect to the USB port.
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| Posted by Robert: Mon Sep 3rd, 2018 16:05 | 102nd Post |
| Now Panasonic are said to be jumping on the Mirrorless Bandwagon. https://www.43rumors.com/ft5-panasonic-will-announce-its-first-full-frame-system-camera-on-september-25/ Looks like the 4/3rds mount will have to be revised - larger, for full frame.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by novicius: Mon Sep 3rd, 2018 17:35 | 103rd Post |
| I like their Logo " Zseries."...at first glance I thought it said " Zeiss "..
____________________ Back in Danmark I do not use my equipment to make photo`s .. I take photo`s to use my equipment The better I become at photography,the better my camera gets. |
| Posted by amazing50: Tue Sep 4th, 2018 09:48 | 104th Post |
Robert wrote:Now Panasonic are said to be jumping on the Mirrorless Bandwagon. 4/3rds Jumbo
____________________ There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept ;~) Mike Grace |
| Posted by Robert: Tue Sep 4th, 2018 10:38 | 105th Post |
amazing50 wrote:Robert wrote:
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Tue Sep 4th, 2018 16:56 | 106th Post |
| This is why it is ALWAYS best to test the camera against your own needs! How are all the others so wrong/misguided/biased? https://nikonrumors.com/2018/09/03/nikon-z7-first-impressions.aspx/#more-126548
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| Posted by jk: Thu Sep 13th, 2018 18:50 | 107th Post |
| Seems like the Z7 delivery date is still on track for end of September.
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| Posted by jk: Mon Sep 17th, 2018 08:18 | 108th Post |
| This is for Eric. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex5vVy6KBac This is about Eric's favourite EVF blackout. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=w2dJYg7-x94 Note there are some changes to settings required.
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| Posted by jk: Mon Sep 17th, 2018 08:19 | 109th Post |
| If you are into video this may interest! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNJgTjRD6qo
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| Posted by Robert: Mon Sep 17th, 2018 09:11 | 110th Post |
jk wrote:This is for Eric. Looks like it's OK. Without the clicking clack. Isn't that what settings are for? My problem is remembering which menu the one I need is in...
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Mon Sep 17th, 2018 09:47 | 111th Post |
| Well only real use will tell. I need to find/make time to check it out and write a review. Probably by end of October if it is released at end of September as planned.
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| Posted by Eric: Mon Sep 17th, 2018 18:52 | 112th Post |
| I thought the only way to stop black out on the new Zs was to drop the image file size down to 16mip? That's not a fix for me ( if it's true) it's a compromise. I also had no doubts the AF would cope with switching quickly between relatively static subjects in the field of view. The issue is keeping the tracking on the subject when IT IS MOVING quickly and erratically. I am still not convinced the EVF flickering won't be distracting and cause you to more easily miss moving subjects. I would have liked to see a comparison between the Zs EVF and the same view through the D850 viewfinder at same operating conditions. I am convinced the period of blackout/ flicker on a DSLR is much shorter and far less distracting? But until I try one I can't be sure. Doubting Thomas.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Eric: Mon Sep 17th, 2018 19:33 | 113th Post |
| Don't get me wrong....I am still interested in. Z body. But at this time it's for different purpose. On a recent trip to a French bird reserve with a friend, I became aware of a failing in my set up or rather approach. I took my D500 with 300mm and tc attached. Mike borrowed Jans LUMIX FZ2000. When we were in the hide I was able to pump off shots ( like the grebes on the bird thread) with my gear. So was mike, admittedly at a lesser 480mm compared to my 630mm, but still croppable without massive quality loss. What I WASNT able to do, having left my wide zoom in the car, was take scenery, habitat and general shots. Mike was, having a 24-480mm zoom on the LUMIX. Sure if I had taken my 16-85 lens as well, I could have swopped back and forth. But frankly that would have been a pain In the @rse. Every time I was shooting scenery I could guarantee a bird would pop up demanding the 600mm!! As it happens it works ok. Mike got the scenery and I got the birds...so we swopped image files. 😆 So apart from always having a second photographer with me it seems to me that I need a second camera with a wide angle lens attached and ready... alongside the long range body and lens. A Z body and lens might fill that wide range position, alongside the D500 for long reach situations. But the wife's FZ2000 at a fraction of the Nikon Z options could equally fill that gap ...and some... up to 400mm. In these wide situations the slowness of the mirrorless is not an issue. Heck...I used my iPhone and got some good scenery shots on the day!! Until a Z camera with F mount telephoto lenses attached can be shown to match the D500 with the same lens attached I don't see it superseding the DSLR or being a complete all rounder....at an economic price.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by jk: Tue Sep 18th, 2018 04:23 | 114th Post |
Eric wrote:I thought the only way to stop black out on the new Zs was to drop the image file size down to 16mip? That's not a fix for me ( if it's true) it's a compromise. There is a specific mention in the AF test of a setting that requires changing in menus. That has always been an issue with DSLRs upto the D3 and is still improving. The D500 seems to lead the Nikon pack. That happens in mirrored cameras as well but the mirrorless it is dependent on the EVF rate and your card save speed. Yes that would be useful. I think you are wrong here as logically the mirror up/down time is a defined period usually around 1/15 second (I estimate) which is why there is little point shooting >8fps as you are just machine gunning blindly. Use a video camera instead.
No harm in being sceptical!
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| Posted by jk: Tue Sep 18th, 2018 04:36 | 115th Post |
Eric wrote:Don't get me wrong....I am still interested in. Z body.Yes all good observations but the Lumix has a tiny sensor (1") compared to the D500 (APS-C). Larger crops become a problem then! The new Nikon P1000 has a longer zoom but a smaller sensor. https://www.dpreview.com/products/nikon/compacts/nikon_cpp1000 More compromises.
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| Posted by jk: Tue Sep 18th, 2018 04:41 | 116th Post |
| Compare the sensor sizes.... Attachment: F1A6C9A6-381A-4986-AEF0-BFCE2A7A0B77.jpeg (Downloaded 16 times)
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| Posted by Robert: Wed Sep 26th, 2018 03:28 | 117th Post |
| An article on the new mirrorless cameras from a punters viewpoint... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45627055 Also the PDF Manual for Z cameras is available, only 484 pages... https://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/products/492/Z_7.html Firmware U/D's https://nikonrumors.com/2018/09/26/nikon-releases-several-firmware-and-software-updates-180-400mm-p1000-wt-7-sb-5000-and-more.aspx/#more-127634
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Wed Sep 26th, 2018 04:48 | 118th Post |
| Thanks for the Z7 manual link. Downloaded and will read.
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| Posted by Robert: Wed Sep 26th, 2018 05:48 | 119th Post |
| What ALL of it??? WOW!
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Wed Sep 26th, 2018 07:32 | 120th Post |
| Only those bits that I need to know! 😀
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| Posted by Robert: Wed Sep 26th, 2018 08:33 | 121st Post |
And don't already... 
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by jk: Wed Sep 26th, 2018 10:54 | 122nd Post |
| Well my Z7 kit - Z7 + FTZ adapter and also 24-70mm f4 Z series lens will be on their way to me on Friday. Everything here is prepared just need the kit. Roll on Saturday or Monday morning for the postman's delivery.
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| Posted by Eric: Fri Sep 28th, 2018 09:22 | 123rd Post |
| Why are these cameras so heavy? They are only 100g lighter than a D500. And 200g heavier than a D5300. Whilst I wouldn't consider any of the current D series cameras too heavy ( perhaps excluding the D5), I feel we are being cheated when they are marketed as new lightweight cameras.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by jk: Fri Sep 28th, 2018 09:45 | 124th Post |
My Z7 kit is on its way to me.
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| Posted by jk: Fri Sep 28th, 2018 09:50 | 125th Post |
| D500 and D5300 are APS-C cameras which have smaller sensors than Z7. But the Z7 and Z6 weigh the same (676g with battery) so it must be that there is additional electronics e.g. EVF that must weigh in pretty heavy. Certainly this is the functionality that eats the battery life.
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| Posted by Eric: Fri Sep 28th, 2018 15:40 | 126th Post |
jk wrote:My Z7 kit is on its way to me. All eyes and ears pointing your way Jonathan. The inevitable question will be.... Z7 or D850? We await your analysis. 
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by jk: Fri Sep 28th, 2018 17:38 | 127th Post |
| Well I will share with you all. No fanboy analysis as we see some places but a genuine feedbackabout how it works for me. Seagulls or rook pictures may follow!
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| Posted by jk: Fri Sep 28th, 2018 17:39 | 128th Post |
| Interesting post in DPR. https://www.dpreview.com/news/7219656533/sigma-confirms-that-its-current-lenses-are-fully-operational-on-the-nikon-z7-with-ftz-adapter Hope they have tested it all, but I doubt it!
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| Posted by jk: Sat Sep 29th, 2018 05:50 | 129th Post |
| OK the eagle has landed. Battery is charging but I have pulled my spare battery for the D850 and am using that no problem. First impressions is that it is like my XT2 but slightly larger, so in reality like a Fuji XH1. The EVF is fine for me. I will go out later and shoot some images but I am busy today with F1 GP qualifying watching and building a wardrobe. First impressions are positive but that is just a handling of the camera. The controls all fall to hand. FTZ adapter is actually much smaller than expected. Will need to test that out but not for a while as I am so busy with house stuff. One thing I dont lke is the side door cover for USB, HDMI, remote trigger/GPS connectors. I feels flimsy as it is hard rubbery plastic. I am sure it wont last long!
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| Posted by Eric: Sat Sep 29th, 2018 07:25 | 130th Post |
jk wrote:OK the eagle has landed. Those covers always seem to be an after thought or rather no thought in many bodies. I suspect not a lot of people delve into that remote connectivity so don't challenge the flimsy covers. That doesn't make it right though.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by GeoffR: Sat Sep 29th, 2018 07:37 | 131st Post |
| I have only ever opened the port covers on the D4 to see what is behind them! I think I have used the external power supply on the D2X a couple of times, likewise the D3 bodies, but only for sensor cleaning. The D4 doesn't have a power socket, Nikon want £150 or so for an adaptor!
|
| Posted by jk: Sat Sep 29th, 2018 15:03 | 132nd Post |
| OK I took 23 images when I went out with the dogs this afternoon. Some thoughts and scribblings....... 1. The camera handles well and its AF is better than the Fuji XT2 but probably not as good as the D850. The AF feels and locks on quicker than the XT2 so I am happy with Mirrorless Nikon sp far. Exposure and controls in general work well for me. 2. I really dont like the fact that I have to twist the 24-70 to initiate it. The lens itself seems very sharp but this behaviour is a left over from the V1 series lenses. I will probably be looking to get another Z lens in the future. I am not going to hurry this though. 3. I need to test FTZ adapter with my AFS Nikkors. This will be very interesting. 4. Camera feels very solid and well built except for the flimsy USB/HDMI/GPS accessory door. I will post some images when I have downloaded and processed. Unfortunately the greatness of a 45MP image will be lost on any screen. Am I pleased with my purchase. Yes so far no major disappointments. I will go so far as to say that all the pre-production/release videos and reviews by the USA reviewers that I have seen makes me wonder if the majority of US people arent suffering from some form of Trumpitis or serious whinge syndrome. It just confirms to me that you really must test a camera yourself rather than believe the slanging or hyperbole of idiot reviewers on the internet.
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| Posted by jk: Sat Sep 29th, 2018 15:46 | 133rd Post |
| Eric that said I havent tested Z7 v D850 for wildlife or bird photos. I would suspect that the D850 will perform better for this type of photography.
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| Posted by jk: Sat Sep 29th, 2018 15:55 | 134th Post |
jk wrote:This is for Eric. My Z7 came with Menu item d11 set to ON as default so this is something that has been done already.
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| Posted by jk: Sun Sep 30th, 2018 04:46 | 135th Post |
| This is the lens roadmap for the Z series cameras. For some reason these lenses are S type lenses. Attachment: F2877147-04A5-435F-85AD-D28336655843.jpeg (Downloaded 6 times)
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| Posted by Eric: Sun Sep 30th, 2018 04:51 | 136th Post |
jk wrote:Eric that said I havent tested Z7 v D850 for wildlife or bird photos. I would suspect that the D850 will perform better for this type of photography. I don't want either of these cameras for wildlife. I am happy with the d500 for that. I want a full frame body for general photography that I can take along with me for scenery shots and general subjects covered by (say) 24-100mm I really don't like the idea of swopping about tele and wide angle lenses with a single D500 in the field. Apart from risk to lens and body I can just imagine switching to a wide lens when a bird pops up needing the tele. I would rather carry two cameras on those outings...but have the full frame for all other photo activities.. The question for me is whether that should be the d850 or the Z6/7? Or to put it another way..... What are real benefits of a mirrorless camera over an equivalent DSLR? From my limited exposure I would say the ONLY benefit is to preview exposure. Sure you can have silent shutter mode and maybe faster FPS on some models. But what else drives us away from a conventional camera? The bodies may be lighter but the lenses generally aren't, So weight advantage is small. And while manufacturers may be working to reduce the negatives of shutter blackout and battery use...I still don't feel driven to pay all that money, just for a camera that previews exposure. I am still leaning towards and D850. Not with standing what I said about a mirrorless use on wildlife I would be curious to see how the Z7 performs and feels with an AFS tele lens AND the 1.4xtc both fixed to the necessary Z adapter.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by jk: Sun Sep 30th, 2018 05:02 | 137th Post |
| In which case then the Z6/7 with the 24-70 would suit.
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| Posted by jk: Sun Sep 30th, 2018 05:11 | 138th Post |
| I am looking to build a very simple lens set. 14-30 f4 85 f1.8 70-200 f2.8 However I am asking myself the following question. Can I do everything I want or need to do with my current Fuji setup?
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| Posted by Eric: Sun Sep 30th, 2018 05:19 | 139th Post |
jk wrote:I am looking to build a very simple lens set. I repeat my question....how does a mirrorless trump (sorry) a DSLR? What drives you away from DSLR?
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by GeoffR: Sun Sep 30th, 2018 08:02 | 140th Post |
Eric wrote: jk wrote:Eric, if you are the manufacturer the reduced necessity of skilled workers, because alignment of all the parts is all but removed. If you are the user, as far as I can see, none what so ever in most cases. Ultimately there may be some advantages but my experience with a mirrorless and EVF was far from positive.
|
| Posted by jk: Sun Sep 30th, 2018 08:58 | 141st Post |
Eric wrote:jk wrote: I prefer to take less pictures, than more, especially with the size of image files. I find the mirrorless allows me to produce my previsualised image more easily that a DSLR that doesnt have the EVF. Since I moved to mirrorless I probably take 1/2 to 2/3 less images than I did with my D3.
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| Posted by Eric: Sun Sep 30th, 2018 17:30 | 142nd Post |
jk wrote:Eric wrote: That's what I believe to be the main advantage of mirrorless...previewing exposure. I'm struggling for a second meritous point. But that may be enough.
____________________ Eric |
| Posted by Robert: Sun Sep 30th, 2018 18:12 | 143rd Post |
| What I yearn for from a camera is what I had with the Bronica S2a, a ground glass screen which I could fine focus with a loupe and compose a picture (albeit inverse) usually on a tripod, in a leisurely fashion. This is quite different from action photography, which frequently requires multiple rapid exposures with very quick response.
____________________ Robert. |
| Posted by GeoffR: Mon Oct 1st, 2018 05:13 | 144th Post |
| My main objection to EVFs, based on an Olympus OM-D EM 5, is that I couldn't see whether the image was in focus through the finder. With an SLR I always assess focus on the focusing screen before pressing the shutter. With the EM 5 it was very much a case of trusting the AF to have got it right. Unless the much improved EVF of the Z series has resolved this issue I don't see the advantage of going mirrorless. It simply doesn't do what I need.
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| Posted by jk: Mon Oct 1st, 2018 09:10 | 145th Post |
| Geoff that is either a function of you using the wrong glasses prescription or not adjusting the dioptre on the camera viewfinder correctly. The EVF renders and image equally well as a optical system. What does differ between the two is the refresh rate. Under poor light conditions and where there is fast movement depending on the EVF refresh rate the rendering can be extremely poor. At >4MP EVF become common and with fast refresh rates the difference between OVF and EVF become an item of preference rather than functional difference.
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| Posted by GeoffR: Mon Oct 1st, 2018 16:05 | 146th Post |
jk wrote: Geoff that is either a function of you using the wrong glasses prescription or not adjusting the dioptre on the camera viewfinder correctly.Actually I suspect it is a function of a 1.6MD EVF with a 16MP camera losing much of the detail. If it were my prescription I would have the same problem with an SLR.
|
| Posted by jk: Mon Oct 1st, 2018 16:59 | 147th Post |
| Is the OM only 1.6MP in EVF? Eeeek. Very grainy!
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| Posted by GeoffR: Tue Oct 2nd, 2018 05:08 | 148th Post |
jk wrote: Is the OM only 1.6MP in EVF? Eeeek. Very grainy!I believe the Mk2 is better however I wasn't prepared to spend more money on another system in the vague hope that the viewfinder might be adequate. I ditched the EM5 for a D4 which delivers the results I require.
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| Posted by jk: Tue Oct 2nd, 2018 10:49 | 149th Post |
GeoffR wrote: jk wrote:Is the OM only 1.6MP in EVF? Eeeek. Very grainy!I believe the Mk2 is better however I wasn't prepared to spend more money on another system in the vague hope that the viewfinder might be adequate. I ditched the EM5 for a D4 which delivers the results I require. I think you made a good decision. I think 4/3 is a nice format but too small for critical work especially if you want to crop and make enlargements. 
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